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TraitorsX: phantom suggestions

PostPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 01:07
by KeyBlue

I recently read What happened to Phantom? and remembered that the things i want from phantom games are never what i get.
I personally want a good game of teamwork, deceit, guessing, logical deductions. Something similar to games like werewolves, but with SCFA battles.

But what i get in the current format is:
  • phantoms team up and break with everyone, resulting in a 4v2.
  • or even a 4v1 if the phantoms don't cooperate and one just lets the other die.
  • or nothing happens until reveal

None of these situations are really appealing to me, and so i haven't played much phantom. (Each time i tried it mostly wasn't that fun)
So what I actually would want is to give the innocents the tools to discover who is a phantom and phantoms the possibility to deceive the others.
Then the innocents can take the initiative to take down a phantom together, but at the same time they can be tricked more easily into attacking another innocent.

So I have created this thread to give my suggestions and look for other suggestions on how to improve the current phantomX.
Ideally i'll take some of them and eventually make a new mod based on the existing mod and the best suggestions.
I don't know anything regarding the possible copyright claims such an endeavour would encounter, so any information regarding that would be quite usefull.

So i am here to look for suggestions and tell you my own. So if I don't end up doing it myself, maybe someone else can pick up the idea.
Feel free to talk and give critique on the suggestions and why they're good/bad.

I suggest all suggestions follow a simple format, so it is clear what is a suggestion and what is a comment. And i'll add all reasonable suggestions to this post.

To remove the connections to current PhantomX and allow for more creativity, i suggest to rename it to TraitorsX with Traitors (phantom), Patriots(paladin) and Normals(innocent).

TraitorsX Suggestions

Traitors gain buff with time and normals deaths
Spoiler: show
Full description:
Give traitors a bigger economy buff, the longer the game takes. Aswell as an increase for each normal that dies.
Intended results:
Noone will have an initial advantage and so it is difficult to determine the traitors based on eco in the beginning.
The longer the traitors can manipulate the game and stay hidden the bigger their advantage will get.
The more normals they can kill themselves or cause the death of one, the better they're playing and thus the bigger the eco advantage should be.
More difficult for traitors to just rush an attack, since their early traitor advantage is small. More difficult to simply skip the new mechanics and rush into battle.
Synergy with other suggestions:
This works well with players having the tools to gain and manipulate knowledge. Fast knowledge gain is good play by normals. Manipulated and obscured knowledge is good play by traitors.

Traitors know each other (possibly don't even need to kill each other)
Spoiler: show
Full description:
Let traitors know who the other traitors are so they can work together in manipulating information and killing off normals.
Preferably one would remove the possibility of personal messages, so they have to work together through feeling each others plans.
(Maybe traitors form a team aswell, to prevent eyeballing each other at the end of the game?)
Intended results:
More players working together can result in more interesting manipulation play?
Synergy with other suggestions:
None for the moment.

Patriot can put one player unders suspicion and ask the system if he is a traitor. Doing this he will reveal himself to the traitors as the patriot.
Spoiler: show
Full description:
The patriot has a consumable ability which he can use once each game. When the ability is activated he chooses a player and the game will tell everyone that the ability has been activated and if it was a succes or not. Simultaneously the traitors get the name of the patriot. Only the patriot knows who the target is.
Intended results:
When the ability is used the patriot will know if someone is to be trusted or not. And when he himself is trusted, can use this knowledge to reveal a traitor.
This opens up a lot of manipulation possibilities for the traitors, i.e. claim that they are the patriot and who is to be trusted or not. In general put doubt in the mind of the players.
Synergy with other suggestions:

Make a voting mechanism that lets players vote for who is a possible traitor.
Spoiler: show
Full description:
Every X amount of time all players can vote on who they think is a traitor. If the threshold of votes is reached the game tells if he is an actual traitor or not.

Some variations are possible:
  • Only who didn't vote with the majority vote, sees if he is a traitor or not.
  • Everyone sees the result
  • Everyone knows someone is a traitor or normal, but don't know who actually was majority.
  • Only patriot and traitors know the full result
  • Random person knows the full result
  • ...
Intended results:
Give Normals a way to discover who is a traitor and who isn't without having to wait for aggression or other tells.
Give Traitors a way to manipulate the results of such a vote, or even the entire voting process. So they have opportunity to be disruptive.
Synergy with other suggestions:
Doesn't really work well if traitors know eachother from the start. This could be a good way for a traitor to find the other traitors.
Team of traitors can easily boycot each vote from the beginning, making it meaningless.

Each X time temporary Prosecutor and temporary Defender work together to find out if 1 person is a traitor. Read full to understand the idea.
Spoiler: show
Full description:
This idea is derived from secrethitler and thus it maybe useful to read how that works to better understand my intention.

Every X time someone will be assigned as Prosecutor. This can be done randomly or in order. The Prosecutor chooses a player that he think he can trust, he will be the Defender. Next the Prosecutor picks 1-2 players as possible traitors. Nobody knows who he picked, except the Defender. He has to pick 1 of them to be "Prosecuted" and as such "Defends" the other player. Then the game signals if a traitor was found or not. And the discussion can begin.
Intended results:
Using this method people can find who is a traitor and who isn't by deducing the received information and peoples behaviour.
Conflicts can arise when a Normal is Prosecutor and a Traitor is Defender or visa versa. Lies about who was prosecuted and who defended.
Two traitors can falsely accuse whoever they want.
Two Normals can find the answers to their questions.
Synergy with other suggestions:
Traitors should probably know eachother for easy manipulation, but isn't required (option in lobby?).
Doesn't work with the other suggestions for information as it already can be a good source of information.

Words with _ in it have to replaced. (See how i did it)
Code: Select all
[b]Full description:[/b] _Full_Description_
[b]Intended results:[/b] _Intended_Results_
[b]Synergy with other suggestions:[/b] _Synergy_

Please put the formating of suggestions in code in a spoiler, so i can easily copy/paste.

Re: TraitorsX: phantom suggestions

PostPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 02:40
by biass

Re: TraitorsX: phantom suggestions

PostPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 10:49
by Hawkei
A Phantom game is whatever you make it. There have often been instances when I have sat back and played passively as phantom. Sometimes a Paladin or Innocent will pre-emptively attack me, and then I play the victim card. I can stick with the team and even help them eliminate the other phantom. It lowers suspicion. Most important thing is to have a pretext for eliminating other players.

Sometimes the innocents relationships can become fractured and I can sometimes exploit this. I will sometimes even break alliance to defend or protect a lesser innocent from an aggressor. It brings them into the fold, and allows them to trust you so much more... Mind you once I am finally discovered I do get some abuse, though others can be rather nonchalant about it. It's what I like to call the Darth Sidious manoeuvre.

Re: TraitorsX: phantom suggestions

PostPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 11:31
by KeyBlue
A phantom has no tools to make anything.
If all players want to play properly, then none of the innocents will attack anyone unless that person has become aggressive.
Following this rule, only phantoms will show aggression and thus, innocents will recognise him for who he is and kill him.

Its almost impossible to create context to kill an innocent, since if people play to win they don't need to talk. Its the person trying to make someone else suspicous that will makes himself suspicious. Unless you are a superb manipulator, which almost nobody is.

The main thing is: phantom can only manoeuvre if the innocents are idiots and don't play to win.
The idea is to introduce reasons for people to talk and thus make it more easy for phantom to manipulate.

And don't forget 'Reveal timer' was invented for a reason: Phantoms that just sit in their base and do nothing, because acting = revealing yourself as a phantom.

Re: TraitorsX: phantom suggestions

PostPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 12:30
by Hawkei
It isn't that hard to create a pretext. As there us usually some form of private chat going on as Innocents seek to identify and unify themselves. Sometimes pointing out aggressive structures, while lacking those very same things can do the trick. There was one game where I eco'ed, as Phantom , with a clear lead and purposefully didn't make an SMD. The Paladin successfully identified me, and saw that as an opportunity to eliminate me.

But he failed to communicate these intentions to the other innocents. I had most of my eco invested into RAS SCU and could easily spam T4 under the water. I build up a case against the Paladin and got a few of the innocents on side. After that it was a slaughter house with innocents being eliminated everywhere. The other Phantom stayed in base, but, because of the huge kill bonus I had accumulated I could easily break him.

Re: TraitorsX: phantom suggestions

PostPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 14:23
by KeyBlue
Hawkei wrote:But he failed to communicate these intentions to the other innocents.

This is what i'm talking about. People not playing properly is not a good game mechanic.
I don't doubt there are good phantom games right now.
But i haven't experienced such a game, maybe because i suck at making such pretext? Who knows.

Lets stop talking about how good it currently is. I don't care.
I want suggestions about how I can get what I want.