Better stealth.

[Duck_42]

Just a suggestion here, but perhaps instead of immediately cancelling the attack order, it could cancel after a period of time (say 5-10 seconds). This would allow suffucient time for air units to reacquire a target, but would prevent targetting of a unit from a long distance away (once LOS/radar is lost).

I actually do like the overall idea, but it can really bite you if you're not expecting it. I saw a player lose three T4 Sera bombers because he tried to target a commander but lost LOS (and had no radar coverage). Instead the T4 bombers flew harmlessly overhead and were promptly shot down.


Lesson to be learned here:
If you don't have radar coverage, it's your own fault!

[Eukanuba]

Would it be possible to have the reasons behind any changes to game mechanics made public? Balance changes are fine as I know that better players than me will spot if something is changed that causes imbalances, but when it comes down to game mechanics I think there needs to be a broad consensus that a problem exists.

I don't honestly know the reason behind this change, were lots of people complaining about artillery hitting stealthed units? The solution seems to cause many more problems than it solves in this case. I worry that changes to gameplay mechanics might be being made by people who are so good at the game that they don't realise how much steeper they've just made the learning curve, and for that reason I would like to see the thinking behind any change to game mechanics.

EDIT: re Duck42's post above, the problem with setting an arbitrary time limit to lose the target is that is arbitrary. Anything arbitrary can 1) cause unfair and unpredictable behaviour, and 2) be abused by people playing the numbers. For instance your opponent might dodge your interceptor in such a way that it loses target.

[Ze_PilOt]

1. Read the thread
2. Read the balance changes.
3. Realize that 1 and 2 answer all your questions and concerns already.
4. Test the new changes before posting again.

[Adraius]

I understand that.

But is it really a bad thing for gameplay ? Sure it's requires more attention and micro, but again, is it really bad ?
(this is an honest question, I understand that the annoyances can be really a pain in ass, but isn't just require a time to adapt ?)

A response to this quote from a couple pages back:

I can't speak for the pros, as I am certainly not one, but the change it causing a rather large amount of pain farther down the skill ladder, where we don't have as much micro to spare on new tasks. SupCom isn't micro intensive in comparison to Starcraft. It also has a mind-bogglingly large number of things to keep track of at once, to the point it can practically paralyze newbies. The requirement that you micro x unit because it will not perform anywhere near it's statistical potential otherwise just serves to frustrate and alienate players, as it runs contrary to the whole playing style of Supreme Commander. When you order your units to attack, defend, or patrol, you expect them to perform that function; losing a match because the flight path of your own fighters made them unable to take out the bombers attacking your ACU as you explicitly commanded them to do is a really demoralizing way to lose a game.


Some of us (those of us that have been playing for awhile) could, with some pain, adapt. I don't think newer players could. You could argue that, as they have no experience with the game already, they would adapt to this 'stealth' mechanic as they already adapt to the real-time economy; I disagree, as this change essentially makes your own units disregard explicit orders on a semi-random basis.

You're already moving to fix this, so I won't say OMG FIX PLS. But you asked if the current implementation is a bad thing, for the game and for FAF: it is.

[Softly]

It also has a mind-bogglingly large number of things to keep track of at once, to the point it can practically paralyze newbies.

A classic sign of this is when you get to 3 mins in and your newbies factory has stopped already. It doesn't take long.

[pip]

An idea: if stealth worked as intended in supcom 1, why not just use the code of Supcom Vanilla? Was it a engine thing? I don't remember any problem with intel, stealth and unit behaviour in vanilla, and it seems that stealth was better.

I installed Vanilla to check, but unfortunately, I can't launch it for some unknown reason. I don't know if the Vanilla mode has the same code as vanilla for stealth, but i doubt it (i can still attack a stealthed unit that i am not supposed to see anymore with a bomber).

[Ze_PilOt]

It was an engine thing. Actually, current code behave like supcom 1 now

[megatron219]

But is it really a bad thing for gameplay ? Sure it's requires more attention and micro, but again, is it really bad ?
(this is an honest question, I understand that the annoyances can be really a pain in ass, but isn't just require a time to adapt ?)

i still think this is a really bad thing for gameplay - it's now extremely difficult (and frustrating, and not fun) to attack a stealthed cybran navy. see the attached replay:

17:30 - i try to attack kab's navy with a number of torpedo bombers. most dont' fire, but instead just move to where they think the cruiser is, and immediately get shot down by the cruiser, without ever having dropped their torpedoes. many torpedo bombers lose sight of the cruiser for a very short period of time and lose their attack order, even though they are almost right next to their target

20:35 - i try what i think you mean by "people just need to adapt" by using 3 interceptors to scout immediately before i have torpedo bombers attack. the torpedo bombers are right behind the interceptors - i give the attack order - the int's get killed by the cruiser quickly, the torpedo bombers lose LOS for just a second and then fly right over the cruiser, dont drop torpedoes, and get shot down.

because torpedo bombers need to be far away from their target when they start to attack it, and will likely lose LOS before they actually drop their torpedoes, it is now almost impossible to use torpedo bombers against a stealthed navy. also - mburgh tries it with t3 torpedo bombers at 22:55 and again at 23:15 - same result - torpedoes are never dropped and torpedo bombers fly uselessly over opponent's navy and get shot down.

it's also very difficult to attack a stealthed navy with your own navy - at 21:20 i tried to attack kab's navy with my own destroyers. but because of their short range of sight, my destroyers can't see his navy and can't attack, even though his navy is right next to mine and within firing range when i give the attack order

in short, the cybran stealthed navy is now extremely difficult to attack

to answer your question in the quote above - yes, i think this change (even if limited to stealth) is really bad for gameplay. especially on large maps - it's very difficult to micro on this level when you have to keep your attention split between 3 or different spots on the map.

i have a few suggestions, the ones i think are best are at the top:

1) please just revert back to how things were before and stop this whole experiment. i've played with this change a number of times now and i think it just makes the game more frustrating and less fun. i've seen many people agree with me and i have not seen anybody express support for the new system. i never really saw any problems with how it was before. i think the problems with the old way that i've seen cited a couple of times ("isn't it silly to have the enemy bomber target your stealthed acu all the way across the map and still be able to hit it") are very rare, and i think the problems/frustrations created by the new system are very frequent

2) instead of immediately losing target on a unit when it goes into stealth, make it lose the target after a delay - 5 seconds?

3) increase the vision radius of every unit to match its gun range

if you want an example of how the old method was actually MORE realistic - consider radar lock -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_lock-on#Semi-active_radar_homing - once you've locked on the target, you can't miss.

[Ze_PilOt]

17:30 - i try to attack kab's navy with a number of torpedo bombers. most dont' fire, but instead just move to where they think the cruiser is, and immediately get shot down by the cruiser, without ever having dropped their torpedoes. many torpedo bombers lose sight of the cruiser for a very short period of time and lose their attack order, even though they are almost right next to their target

Units don't move where the enemy was in 3618, you must have given a wrong order.
Also, you only lose focus of units behind stealth : Destroy the generator first, and it will act like any other navy. (like the first target in a UEF navy will probably be the shield boat).

to answer your question in the quote above - yes, i think this change (even if limited to stealth) is really bad for gameplay. especially on large maps - it's very difficult to micro on this level when you have to keep your attention split between 3 or different spots on the map.

That's really good then, because it was the main purpose of this change.

2) instead of immediately losing target on a unit when it goes into stealth, make it lose the target after a delay - 5 seconds?

I'm thinking of make them losing it depending of their speed and attack distance. So t1 bombers won't change a lot, while t3 torp bombers will be able to target them longer under steath.

[discoverer2k4]

1) please just revert back to how things were before and stop this whole experiment. i've played with this change a number of times now and i think it just makes the game more frustrating and less fun. i've seen many people agree with me and i have not seen anybody express support for the new system. i never really saw any problems with how it was before. i think the problems with the old way that i've seen cited a couple of times ("isn't it silly to have the enemy bomber target your stealthed acu all the way across the map and still be able to hit it") are very rare, and i think the problems/frustrations created by the new system are very frequent

I totally agree! I play this game not since years like other players here but I played some 200 games since the last 3 months and since the "better stealth" modification is out - I'm completely frustrated about the game and lose nearly every game - I feel again like a "completely" beginner. Well, I could participate at some training lessons of some peoples here - but actually I just wanna have some fun with a couple of friends in that game - playing 2-3 games every second day and don't want to train like a semi pro to make this game my first hobby... I can understand that this change more fits to skilled players and that changes are also made for these players ... but the "older gameplay" where easier to learn - especially for my "beginner" friends who has quite more problems with the gameplay now than ever before.
The other point is, I have around 1000 points now but I feel and play since the change like having a ranking of 200. The problem is, most of the noob games I'll be kicked off with that ranking. In games with similar or higher ranking I get kicked in the ass after 6-20 minutes! Thats not fair anymore

My proposal would be (like others already said, I guess): Make a poll! Ask all players what skill they are and if they want the new game play or the old game play. Only at this "special" type of change! I like all other changes or actually I don't care about them so much, but THIS is really hard to learn as a beginner/intermediate...
And I agree that it is very difficult now to fight against a couple of t2 ships by air. Especially, if you lost one time your marine facilities ... I have the feeling there is no way back into the battle.

I really can imagine how much work it was to implement this changes and maybe it is "good" from the viewpoint of a good player who is able to micro his units a lot - but really, it is very very hard for those who just started with that game.

BR,
discoverer2k4

...sorry for the bad english...

edit after ze_pilot's post: sorry, I understand your complaint about my post. I'm a real noob anyway - just thought I can maybe help and give an opinion more or less representative for low skilled players here. I think now I maybe understand the reasons for that change ... didn't realized that cybrans stealth wasnt working so well before... but anyway - the game is a bit harder now. Its not a feeling, its fact, otherwise I wouldn't post it. But sure, the better players should discuss and make the game better - not the noobs sorry for that.