New Veterancy fine tuning

[pip]

Thank you for putting in this work, pip. It is very enlightening.

2) Tuned down xp values : After a lot of testing, I believe the xp values for each tier should be more like :
1 xp / 3 xp / 6 xp / 50 xp, to prevent too fast boost at different levels.

I'll add my opinion that this should be tweaked to 1,3,9,100. Should a monkeylord really have to kill 2 GCs to get vet? And xps are worth much more than 10 T3 units, so it works.

But yeah, zep, listen to pip. He knows what he's talking about.

You're welcome! I hope it can help Zep tweak his system in a balanced way and content the whiners or just make them forget about it.
The problem with 1 / 3 / 9 / 100 is not in the units you mention but other ones:

- if light t3 units for instance are worth 9, it is too easy for experimentals to gain veterancy :
spy planes and ASF, loyalists and Titans, sniper bots, are not hard to kill and can be found in numbers. It allows experimentals but also ACU to gain veterancy too fast, thus buffing t4 and ACU a lot against t3 and I don't think that's necessary. Even with 6xp for t3 units, t4 is buffed against t3.
- if light t3 units for instance are worth 9, it is too easy for more powerful t3 untis to gain veterancy:
it buffs a lot Bricks, Percival, Othuums and Harbingers against Titans and Loyalist because each killed Titan for instance will bring 1 vet level to a Brick. This is huge! It's an indirect big buff to these high end t3 units and a nerf to the lighter ones which don't have a lot of HP to begin with (and I don't think the Titans need an indirect nerf).
A brick should need at least to kill 2 t3 units to kill one vet. Compare with t1 units : they don't vet for killing just one of their kind!

- Experimentals worth 100 means you believe that killing one of its own kind should bring an instant vet level (whereas before, it was worth only 1 kill). It is never the case in all supcom units (see t1). For sure, it should definitely boost the killing Exp, but not necessarily give it an instant vet level, especially if it's a high end experimental.

You mention the Monkeylord having to kill two GC to gain one veterancy, but it's rather the other way around that is imbalanced : one GC gaining one instant veterancy for 1 monkeylord, and another one just after if they arrive slightly delayed / have to manoeuver? Why should it be so easy? Again, a t1 unit doesn't get vet for killing just 1 t1.
It's not hard for a monkeylord and GC to kill some additional units and gain one veterancy. The highest HP experimental benefit more from veterancy system, so it's not necessary to overbuff them.

[AdmiralZeech]

In another thread people were saying that T3 units (apart from the assault bots) were not very good. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think it might be interesting if certain units were average on initial stats but have the special characteristic of gaining vet very quickly.

The sniper bots and T3 mobile arty (and T2 MMLs?) seem like good candidates for such a mechanic. What if their vet requirements were pretty low, and their vet bonuses were quite good? (is it possible to do per-unit vet values?)

It seems interesting because you then have a "powerful unit", that can't be effectively spammed, since each of them need a certain amount of enemies to reach its true potential. Whereas in most RTSes, when you have an OP unit, you want to spam it as much as you can.

This adds more micro to the game, though, if you have to cultivate your army to make sure you dont waste any kills. It would be interesting to see if this adds some opportunities for tactical skill or if it just becomes a silly chore.

[FunkOff]

You mention the Monkeylord having to kill two GC to gain one veterancy, but it's rather the other way around that is imbalanced : one GC gaining one instant veterancy for 1 monkeylord, and another one just after if they arrive slightly delayed / have to manoeuver? Why should it be so easy? Again, a t1 unit doesn't get vet for killing just 1 t1.

I think you're making a good case that we shouldn't determine XP value on tech level alone. There's just too much difference within techs to make them all worth the same... is land scout worth the same as a tank? Is a monkeylord worth the same as a CZAR? Should a pillar, costing 200 mass, be worth as much as frigates, costing 1300 mass?

IMO, maybe point value should just be mass cost/50, rounded up. Some sample values:
T1 scout/mob AA/mob arty = 1
T1 tank/engie = 2
T2 tank = 4
T2 Frigate = 6
T3 Loyalist/titan = 10
T3 heavy bot = 26
GC = 550 (effectively 100 ore less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Scathis = 1260 (effectively 100 or less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Battleship = 180 (effectively 100, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)

These values seem more fair, right?
I do think, however, that we need to change the vet level requirements. 20 for an ACU, with all these new vets, is simply too low. ACU should have 50 per level, at least. Light experimentals requiring 100 seems fair, as does 200 or more for heavy experimentals.

[pip]

You mention the Monkeylord having to kill two GC to gain one veterancy, but it's rather the other way around that is imbalanced : one GC gaining one instant veterancy for 1 monkeylord, and another one just after if they arrive slightly delayed / have to manoeuver? Why should it be so easy? Again, a t1 unit doesn't get vet for killing just 1 t1.

I think you're making a good case that we shouldn't determine XP value on tech level alone. There's just too much difference within techs to make them all worth the same... is land scout worth the same as a tank? Is a monkeylord worth the same as a CZAR? Should a pillar, costing 200 mass, be worth as much as frigates, costing 1300 mass?

IMO, maybe point value should just be mass cost/50, rounded up. Some sample values:
T1 scout/mob AA/mob arty = 1
T1 tank/engie = 2
T2 tank = 4
T2 Frigate = 6
T3 Loyalist/titan = 10
T3 heavy bot = 26
GC = 550 (effectively 100 ore less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Scathis = 1260 (effectively 100 or less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Battleship = 180 (effectively 100, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)

These values seem more fair, right?
I do think, however, that we need to change the vet level requirements. 20 for an ACU, with all these new vets, is simply too low. ACU should have 50 per level, at least. Light experimentals requiring 100 seems fair, as does 200 or more for heavy experimentals.

It's tempting to further distinguish units, but I think it'll be too complicated. It seems already quite complicated to have proper xp values for each tech level, I don't think it's worth the effort to create new categories.

Another problem is that your custom values will be a big buff to higher tier units compared to lower ones, because only higher tier units will really benefit from higher xp values : lower ones will never benefit fully from killing higher tier units, they will gain just one level which doesn't mean much compared to the unit they just killed.
Taking your example, would it be fair that a Titan gains only one level (9xp required) for killing a Brick(26xp worth), whereas the Brick will gain also one level for killing a Titan? I don't think it would be fair, so this would lead to adjust or at least check each and every unit veterancy thresholds in the game to make sure your values are fair and consistant. That's not worth the effort IMO.

One good point behind the 6xp value for any t3 unit, beside limiting too fast veterancy growth for ACU and Exp, is that a t2 regular unit will gain a vet level for killing a t3 one without "xp overkill" (if you see what I mean), and it won't be too easy for stronger t3 units to farm weaker t3 units either : a Brick fighting Titans won't reach level 5 by just killing 5 Titans, but 10. This is more reasonable.

To sum it up, I think Zep system can be kept simple and intuitive with the values I posted previously, without need to further hassle ourselves in a complete, complex new system.

[FunkOff]

pip, your concerns are valid, but there's no way the same XP value for a spy plane and a battleship could possibly be balanced. 200 mass = 9000 mass?

XP should be tied to mass value, both in needed XP for leveling, and for worth. A unit should probably need to kill its own value to gain 1 level.

A T1 tank worth 2 should gain a vet level after killing another T1 tank, 2 lesser T1 units, or an higher tech level unit.
A T2 tank worth 5 should gain a vet level killing another T2 tank, or 3 T1 tanks, or 5 lesser T1 units, or anything worth more than itself.
A T3 siege bot should gain a vet level killing 3 T2 tanks, 5 T1 tanks, or something more costly than itself.
A Galactic Collossus would need to kill 550 lesser T1 units, or 225 T1 tanks, or 110 T2 tanks, or 55 T3 siege bots, or several ACUs, or the better part of a base to gain vet. This makes more sense, because a GC killing 550 xp in stuff (units and structures included), using my system, is more difficult than getting a T1 tank to kill another T1 tank, but far more rewarding. And that's what we need.

ACUs cost 18,000, but should probably have their mass cost reduced to something like 5,000, so they need 100 points to level, and are worth 100 points.

[Ze_PilOt]

If they are enough players to test both ideas, it's quite easy to implement one, try it, implement the other, try it, and see what is the better one.

[pip]

We were at the same conclusion considering overcharge by the way. These value seems fine, I will try to push a 3616 balance mod tonight using these values.

Great! I think they are worth testing.

[pip]

I'm a bit sad to see that ACU custom veterancy requirements have already been removed. I thought it worked pretty well to give a chance to t2 units.

[Ze_PilOt]

What ? Removed when ?
I think there were never added, and that is a mistake, because it's in the repository.

[pip]

I read a week or so ago that you added these balance changes:

- Reverted the holo to jammer for UEF.
- Changed ACU veterancy :
Level 1 = 20,
Level 2 = 50,
Level 3 = 90,
Level 4 = 140,
Level 5 = 200

- New stealth/intel behavior :
- If you attack-order an unit and lose radar or line of sight of it, you won't follow it under the FoW anymore.
- If you lose radar coverage over an unit, all units firing at it will stop immediately (previously, was when the unit was searching better target - from 1 seconds up to 5).
- If you use a bomber on a target and lose track of it, the order is automatically replaced by a ground-attack.
!!! THIS NEED A LOT OF TESTING FOR DEBUGGING !!!

I assumed they were removed since they don't appear in game. But maybe they were just tested in the balance mod. Sorry for the confusion.