New Veterancy fine tuning

[Ze_PilOt]

Pip : These value seems to make sense. I will throw them in a new 3616 balance mod as soon as possible.

[pip]

Thanks Zep, I do think they would improve your system. There would probably be still room for improvements here and there, later on, if some units still gain veterancy too easily. But that can be adjusted case by case if the new general "feeling" about veterancy is good.

[Ze_PilOt]

Don't know if it's really good, but at least it's a new tool to balance some areas.

[pip]

I found a way to test different values for the veterancy system. I'm gonna do thorough testing to find out appropriate values for each tier, and for ACU and Experimentals veterancy. I think 3xp for tech 2 is pretty good, but I'm still not sure for t3.

I will also try to spot wrong values. For instance, I noticed that an Hoplite is considered 1 xp only and a Mongoose 10 xp (which explains even more some crazy veterancy build up while fighting t2 in some replays).

[Ze_PilOt]

I rely on the categories in the BP, but it seems that some units are off. Firebeetle are tier 3 for exemple.

If someone got time to make me a list of all incorrect units ? (can easily be spotted on with the select tier in cheating menu, it use the same classification as the veterancy one).

[pip]

I rely on the categories in the BP, but it seems that some units are off. Firebeetle are tier 3 for exemple.

If someone got time to make me a list of all incorrect units ? (can easily be spotted on with the select tier in cheating menu, it use the same classification as the veterancy one).

I thought about that too, but it's not that simple. For instance, Firebeetles are listed in tier 3, but they give 1 xp only. I'm testing all units right now to check which ones don't provide the proper amount of xp.

[Ze_PilOt]

Thanks. I can eventually goes by the same classification as the cheating menu if it's easier.

[pip]

I spent a few hours testing a lot of parameters for the new veterancy system. Here are my findings:

1) Units providing wrong xp:
Here are the units I spotted that don't provide the intended xp value when killed :
Absolver = 1 xp
Hoplite = 1 xp
Mongoose = 10 xp
Firebeetle = 1 xp
Seraphim t3 mobile shield generator = 5 xp
Spearhead t3 mobile missile platform = 5 xp
All SCU = 10 xp
T1 transport = 5 xp
Mercy = 10 xp
UEF and Cybran Fighter / bomber = 10 xp
Seraphim Fighter / bomber = 1 xp
Cooper (UEF torpedo boat) = 1 xp
Mermaid = counter intelligence boat = 1 xp
Seraphim t3 sub = 1xp
All strategic subs = 0 xp
All tac missile launchers = 0 xp
All strategic missile launchers = 0 xp
Seraphim experimental nuke launcher = 0 xp
Seraphim Battleship = 0 xp
UEF and Seraphim ACU = 0 xp

I don't know how to tweak the system so that each unit has the proper xp category, but at least these info can tell you what units need to be looked at.

2) Tuned down xp values : After a lot of testing, I believe the xp values for each tier should be more like :
1 xp / 3 xp / 6 xp / 50 xp, to prevent too fast boost at different levels.

3) Custom ACU veterancy requirements:
I tested new ACU veterancy requirements following a simple rule : each level is +10 compared to the previous one, so that it's slower to level up to higher levels.

Level 1 = 20
Level 2 = 50
Level 3 = 90
Level 4 = 140
Level 5 = 200

I tested these thresholds with xp values as mentionned above (t2 = 3 xp).
In a game against a cheating Sorian AI rush to mimick a t1 and t2 fight with an upgraded ACU using a lot of overcharge to kill t1 and t2 units, the veterancy levels were quite close to the old system. Explanation : when I was 2 stars i.e between 50 and 90 xp, I had around 40 kills (same as previous level 2). When I reached level 3 (90 xp), I had 64 kills, which is close to the previous 60 cap. The benefit of the new system is that it's harder to farm t1 units for veterancy in higher levels, but not that easy to reach level 4 and 5 veterancy even against t2 and t3.

4) Increase a bit reload of overcharge:
To further prevent ACU from being too strong against t2 and T3 thanks to overcharge, I would advise to revert overcharge rate of fire to 0.2 (3599 = 5 seconds) from 0.3 (3603 = 3.3 seconds), or to a middle value like 0.25 (4 seconds), to increase a bit the window of vulnerability of the ACU, and make it more risky to go rambo against a few t3 for instance.
Even in a customized veterancy system like I described in 3), where the ACU doesn't gain veterancy too easily, the biggest problem is not so much the hp boost for ACU (except in a few cases where the ACU has a lot of HP) but the fact that it can kill instantly big threats in a glimpse = making the opponent waste a lot of mass. I think the risk / reward is currently too much in favor of the OCing ACU, because of the too fast reload of overchage.

5) Veterancy levels adjustments for Experimentals:
Monkeylord and Ythota (there seems to be a typo for level 2, it should be + 75 for each level and level 2 was + 50) :
Level 1 = 75
Level 2 = 150
Level 3 = 225
Level 4 = 300
Level 5 = 375

Megalith should have the same levels as GC: 100 / 200 / 300 / 400 / 500

Air Experimentals should all have : 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 250, even though these values don't mean the same for them.
The new veterancy system is sometimes a big buff : for the Czar, it makes its defense against ASF higher, for the Soul Ripper, it also increases a lot its survivability because each level equals a lot of HP. I believe its cost should be reverted to what it was for this reason, because it's almost sure you'll attack t1/t2/t3 units and structures in packs and it will then reach veterancy faster than before (and thus, it is a strong unit).
For the T4 bomber, it's a buff against air units, but a big nerf against land ones, because it cannot gain more than one level at a time. I think it's fine like that.

For Tempest, Fatboy and Atlantis, it's a good buff with the current quite low veterancy requirements because they don't have too much HP, providing the new xp values are 1 / 3 / 6 / 50 (otherwise, even them are OP).

[Ze_PilOt]

We were at the same conclusion considering overcharge by the way. These value seems fine, I will try to push a 3616 balance mod tonight using these values.

[FunkOff]

Thank you for putting in this work, pip. It is very enlightening.

2) Tuned down xp values : After a lot of testing, I believe the xp values for each tier should be more like :
1 xp / 3 xp / 6 xp / 50 xp, to prevent too fast boost at different levels.

I'll add my opinion that this should be tweaked to 1,3,9,100. Should a monkeylord really have to kill 2 GCs to get vet? And xps are worth much more than 10 T3 units, so it works.

But yeah, zep, listen to pip. He knows what he's talking about.