T3 Land fix?

[Pavese]

It's bit of a mess imo.


Heavy assaults do 400 dps, have insane HP (add the flavour of shields) and the only thing they suck at is speed.


T3 arty? Does 70 DPS for 2/3 of the cost and needs to be static.
Sniperbots? Do 130 DPS for 2/3 of the cost, can only shoot forward. Is a bit faster but nothing amazing.

The only thing that shines is T3 MMLs with only 1/3 cost and 240 DPS.

Did anyone ever use an absolver?


T3 support is to weak compared to their "tanks" making for a fairly boring lategame allthough theres could be much more to it. Heavy assaults + shields are always a better option then any of the support T3s. This needs a fix.


Also the day where t3 land is needed to support an exp would be glorious days. ATM its: "if one does not work, make more.". T3 Land is slower, needs longer to build and doesnt have magic vet to insta regen thousends of HP. Plus its outright slaughtered by OC.

[FunkOff]

I agree. T3 mob arty objectively sucks. In comparison to T3 bots, it's got longer range (+) but less damage (-) less accuracy (-) and less health (-). That's three nerfs for one buff. I think T3 arty should have either more health (around 6000, for its cost) or more damage (around 150 DPS) and better accuracy.

[Jace]

While its true that i have hardly ever seen the mentioned units in actual latelategames when u see more than one experimentals. The main reason is and will always be that Exps are easier to manage.....and bigger is cooler so it makes more fun to have them ^^
But i dont think that Solo Exps are better than a Exp with a army behind it which can split up after the defense line is broken.
i think T3Arty and Co still have their value in early and mid T3 game.

T3Bots Just rape every T1 or T2 Unit thats left on the map, and i see their purpose and value in that if your enemy doesnt stop his spam.

A few early T3Artys can break a not so well shielded T2Tech defense while you cover it a little. I dont think its meant to be on par with a stationary T2Arty when you look at its cost. But you are right that the static aspect is a setback that prevents its use in most open field fights. So it either should need to stay on spot for a long time to start firing to justify a buff or it should shoot while moving without a buff. actually that alone would be a huge buff because it could rape your enemys defenses while evading tml and T2PDArty. i am sure this would break most bunker lategames on isis. lol i see whines if that would come. you see it may be not as strong as you would expect from t3 but its cheap compared to armored assault bots and siege tanks.

T3Percivals,Othuum or Brick are often seen in lategames and even used as a T3 opening. In my opinion they can even decide games if you dont wait for the Exps to come. I dont see the problem. Even if they are slow i think they have to be because they hit so hard.

the sniperbots have one problem: you neeed a map without hills or they will shoot into the ground. So you dont see them often. If there are no hindrances i even would prefer a sniperbot over an arty(as long as it cant shoot while moving). But: I have had games in which 2 or 4 of them successfully where used for commsnipes. So if your first T3 factory is land and the enemy commander in reach while the territory allows it, they are outright frightening to deal with if you ask me. So i wouldnt call them weak. they just have a very limited field of useability.

An for the rumored Absolver: I have seen them used. and i think mixing a few of them into a bigger army when you plan to overrun a heavy shielded defense line is a very viable thing to do. The Range is very good so when the close combat units come into range the enemy shields should have already suffered quite a bit. Of course they have again a very limited window of usage like the sniper bots. They have to be used in bigger battles against fortified lines. Hell in Lategames with heavy Shielded defense lines i always use them if i am aion, i dont understand people who wont. their range is good and they do their part. Hell they are cheap too for a T3 unit so mixing a few of them into a bigger army cant be wrong. Of course these sort of games occur not very often if its not a fungame.

[TA4Life]

I believe that T3 arty is fine as it is. It is a very effective anti turtle unit, that will out range t3 pd and becomes very effective once you have about 10 of them. There have been many games on Wonder 5v5 where t3 arty forced forward bases back, so it has a nice place in the game before the experimentals come in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIigupbInkA

Here is another example where t3 arty wins the game.

[FunkOff]

I believe that T3 arty is fine as it is. It is a very effective anti turtle unit, that will out range t3 pd and becomes very effective once you have about 10 of them. There have been many games on Wonder 5v5 where t3 arty forced forward bases back, so it has a nice place in the game before the experimentals come in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIigupbInkA

Here is another example where t3 arty wins the game.

This is why I think T3 arty should just get a health boost. A health buff won't put it in danger of being overpowered because it won't increase it's firepower, but it will make the arty harder to kill, so your investment in it won't be easily sniped, like it is now.

[uberge3k]

T3 Land fix?

Why would we fix something that isn't broken?

[Jace]

I think that a way to expand the T3Phase before massing Experimentals would be a good thing, because many people prefer to go direktly into a monkey lord spam. Though they can be countered pretty good by Percivals and Co. i dont like it.
The T3 Phase feels rather short compared to T1 and T2, but most games end with the first few T3 Units so i dont really know.....

So maybe T3 hasnt to be pushed but some Experimentals have to be weakened so you cant throw them out faster than T3 Units?

The main point of the fast monkey lord first is its low energy cost i think? You need 2/3 of the EnergyEco than any other Exp.
So you can safe the mass to build T2, T3 Energy

ML 260.000 > Chicken 312.000 > GC 343.000 > Fatboy 350.000 > Mega 437.000

After the ML the Chicken is a little fast too. But i am not the one who would like to rebalance something like that. Even though i dont like games with rushed Exps.
After all a rushed Exp mostly only works because your enemy lets you the time to do it instead of attacking you.


Edit: Can anyone give me a reason why a Megalith has less BuildTime than a Fatboy?
Maybe just increasing the BuildTimes would be enough, so that you really need to have the raw Workerpower if you want to mass EXPs?

[Pavese]

I'm not happy with spamming Percys and shields all day. if i want to break a bunker i use 7 percys and 5 shields instead of 10 T3 artys. Or 2800 DPS with 65100k hp and 17500k HP instead of 700 DPS and being so weak it needs to be babysitted all the time.

But what about the t2 vs t3 balance? Well Loyalists, harbis and Titans utterly destroy them anyway, so good t3 arty wont affect this too much.


@Anaryl: thats basicly one of the big points i think. T3 Land is effective vs T4, but only if your opponent decided to play the t3 land game with you and you have a decent army before the first GC/Monkey/yotha shows up.

Exp without support should not outright pwn everything imo. The only thing where i see this is true is Fatboy (ofcourse) which makes him the worst exp as the other 3 main assault exp (yotha(GC(ML) can be just spammed all day and do massive damage. Espeically GC with a few shields and hover flak is a more comon sight then a Harb army in lategame.

And i'm pretty sure we all know this or do this ourselves.

After all a rushed Exp mostly only works because your enemy lets you the time to do it instead of attacking you.

Its pretty hard to attack into a defended base especially when your not in position to attack immediately. Slow speed is the only thing that hampers Heavy assaults.

So if your not knocking on his door and he has a 30% exp. when you scout its commonly a better decision to retreat and bunker up/build air then to attack into an exp that will be finished by the time you get there. And don't forget OC from the commander that should be in base at this point as well. Killing eco is pretty cost ineffective with t3 because you leave him a good portion of your own mass to rebuild. And if he defends well and you suddenly have no army vs a exp..... its a g to the g no re.

[Jace]

Its pretty hard to attack into a defended base especially when your not in position to attack immediately. Slow speed is the only thing that hampers Heavy assaults.

So if your not knocking on his door and he has a 30% exp. when you scout its commonly a better decision to retreat and bunker up/build air then to attack into an exp that will be finished by the time you get there. And don't forget OC from the commander that should be in base at this point as well. Killing eco is pretty cost ineffective with t3 because you leave him a good portion of your own mass to rebuild. And if he defends well and you suddenly have no army vs a exp..... its a g to the g no re.

Thats why i thought about simply increasing the buildtimes would be an easy way out. If you need more time to build the ML without really massive assist than the enemy to create a T3Army which is able to counter it. You cant rush Exps, but have to wait until you have the buildpower in form of workers/assist stations

[pip]

1) It's wrong to state that t3 artillery has low DPS. When a Cybran artillery has 7 AOE, it means it can deal 450 damages to up to 10 units or structures at the same time when you are lucky. So the DPS of the t3 mobile arty ranges from 67.5 DPS to 675 DPS.
67.5 = against shields, because shields nullify AOE, and 120-675 DPS against a bunch of unshielded units, depending on how many you hit.
So mobile artillery has a very fluctuant DPS (don't be fooled by the database) and their weakness is only against shields, because they nullify what makes t3 mobile arty good = AOE (beside their very long range, of course).
They don't need any buff except against shields (see dedicated thread).

2) I tend to agree with Anaryl (and Vault54). One way to enhance t3 gameplay would be to make experimentals only buildable by SCU and ACU with either a t4 engy upgrade, or a more expensive t3 engy suit. That would force t3 to last longer.

But this wouldn't be good in the current state of SCU : they should be cheaper and faster to build.
If we make SCU like 33% or even 50% cheaper and faster to build, with 33%-50% less HP, and with double base DPS, it's easier to bring them into the game as t3 units. Then they can build exp, and you can further customize them to be T3.5 attack units with upgrades, or super engies, precisely because they cost less to begin with, and the upgrades are not that expensive afterwards.