Random Statistical Unit Data

[Rogueleader89]

For a long time I've meant to test some of my assumptions in unit composition, counters, reactions I should take, etc. against hard data. Today I finally started getting around to it so I figure why not share this data with others? If nobody cares I will happily not post it here (would save me a bunch of time in figuring all of this stuff out if I didn't format it all for public viewing :P), but hopefully some of you will find this interesting/useful. Please bare in mind that I am doing this primarily for myself so I won't be comparing every faction every which way and I'll probably focus on things that interest me more than things other people care about.

If people are interested in this sort of thing I'll post more stuff in this thread later but for now I've only just started to approach a few pieces of naval play. O and also I'm primarily a uef player so I will be using a lot of uef units and structures here for comparisons (though I am starting to branch out more and I use to play aeon so you might see a few other things + if someone brings up something that interests me without figuring it out themselves I am easily distracted and may tangent off into figuring it out as well :P), though I'll try to note when things are the same across the board or how different they are.

Disclaimer of course being that all the numbers I present here are being pulled from the unit list for what is now patch 3640 so any future balancing or incorrect listings will throw this completely off. Similarly I am not taking veterancy into account very much, I will likely note it when it most definitively would come into play in an "ideal" cost v cost scenario, but in larger battles unless you are perfectly microing a unit to get veterancy better (does anybody do this in the middle of a large battle?) its unlikely any given unit is going to significantly increase in veterancy (I'd suspect 1 rank at most if they survive long enough, which will have a significant impact given how veterancy currently works but its not easily calculated for any given battle)

Lastly, to end this overly long introduction, I do not want to discuss balance here, we have several other threads for that, please use those, I am doing this solely to help refine my own tactics.


Random Data we'll be using in this post(not a full list..)
UEF Frigate = 280 Mass, 2800 Energy
2120hp, 50dps (direct fire naval), 28 range

Cybran Salem Destroyer = 2250 Mass, 15000 Energy
6050hp, 230 dps, 80 range
(Chosen as our default destroyer at random, note that aeon destroyers are a bit tankier with better dps, seraphim are a bit trickier to calculate due to when/whether or not you submerge them, I may look into them more later but for now the cybran destroyer suffices)

UEF Neptune Battlecruiser = 7000 Mass, 60000 Energy
25000hp
282.09 dps per laser (2 lasers)
20 dps torpedo

Destroyer V Frigate
1 cybran destroyer costs ~8 UEF frigates (ignoring energy cost).
8 uef frigates will do 400dps, killing the destroyer in ~15 seconds if none of them are destroyed.
The destroyer does 230 dps, it will kill 1 frigate every ~9.2 seconds
7 uef frigates will kill the destroyer in ~17.2 seconds, so the destroyer will only ever kill 1 frigate if equal mass costs are at close range and neither is microed (realistically at least 2 frigates will die due to destroyer range).

Even if the destroyer was microed, assuming the frigates could get close they would likely win handily cost for cost. As destroyer numbers increase however they will eventually reach a point at which, with micro, they overpower frigates (similarly if you micro long enough you will also beat frigates). Lesson: Micro your destroyers and don't get them pinned in corners/against the shore or this fight goes surprisingly worse than I expected.

Battlecruiser V Frigate
A UEF Battlecruiser is mass cost equivalent to exactly 25 UEF frigates.
At 584.18 dps a battlecruiser will kill a frigate in ~3.6 seconds
25 frigates will kill a battlecruiser in 20 seconds assuming none of them die. In that time, the battlecruiser would actually have killed ~5.5 frigates
20 frigates will kill the battlecruiser in ~25 seconds.

Given this, a battlecruiser engaging with frigates at close range will die in a cost for cost battle assuming that neither is microed having only killed somewhere around 5-7 frigates.

In practice of course, range of a destroyer/battlecruiser army along with numbers will tend to even this out more, the larger the numbers/better the micro the less likely the frigates will win cost for cost (especially given that none of the battlecruisers in question will ever miss a shot and you are likely to have shield boats by the time you reach battlecruisers), but having enough frigates in the early t3 phase could do a lot to help against those first few battlecruisers.

EDIT: ZLO also kindly reminded me that frigates don't bunch well to hit a single target, which should have a pretty large effect on this matchup with only a fraction of the total number of frigates to fire at a given point in time, thus this matchup is probably much closer to cost equavalent given that not all of the frigate's firepower can be brought to bear at once.

Submarines V Frigates
T1 attack subs for all factions do 37.5dps (ignoring their surface cannons which you will hopefully never try to use against frigates :P); they cost 360 mass each. It will take 1 t1 sub ~56.5 seconds to kill 1 frigate (bearing in mind as numbers of each increase there will be more frigates than there are submarines in a given engagement due to costing 80 mass less; assuming of course that the subs aren't killing frigates/factories prior to engagements since frigates can't hit them)

T2 cybran subs deal 112.5 dps at the cost of 1100 mass each. So 1 sub costs the same as ~3.9 uef frigates, will kill a single frigate in ~18.8 seconds, and a mass equivalent number of frigates (rounding up to 4) in ~75.3 seconds

In the end the subs will obviously win because the frigates can't hit them but they will take so long to kill the frigates cost for cost that, assuming they are only engaged close to/upon reaching the enemy's naval facilities, they should be able to destroy a fair amount of the enemy's naval production, lesson here is, if you are going to make subs keep an eye on your opponent and be aggressive, in sufficient numbers subs will likely be able to hold against frigates without too many losses of other ships/structures, but prior to that point, if you are going to rely solely on subs to defend you, you need to attack early enough for them to deal damage before the frigates are actually in range of anything.

Frigates V Torpedo Defense
If you seek to protect your naval facilities with torpedo defense, a UEF t1 torpedo launcher has 1700hp (more than the other factions by varying amounts <= 100) and does 75dps (same as all torpedo defenses). It costs 350 mass and is thus roughly equivalent to 1.25 frigates. Assuming both engage at close range it will take a t1 torpedo defense ~28.2 seconds to kill a uef frigate. It will take ~34 seconds for a single frigate to kill a t1 torpedo defense; given the cost difference, this is very close to mass equivalent but likely does favor the t1 torp defense in the end.

EDIT: Icedreamer made a good point that frigates don't always hit torp defense given current inaccuracies in their hitbox, so I've gone and run a couple tests ingame. At maximum range this is definitely true, UEF frigates (this may differ with other frigates depending on how the hitbox problem works exactly...) seem to miss about 50% of the time when shooting at t1 torp defense (its more random than this but over a couple tests it averaged out around this figure or slightly better than), so halve frigate dps as compensation for this and the torp defense comes out pretty nicely ahead in mass equivalency, with the t1 torpedo defense being able to kill ~2.4 frigates in the time it takes a single frigate to kill the torpedo defense. However, if the frigate moves closer it eventually stops missing (at point blank range it never misses, doesn't have to be completely point blank to achieve this either though), in which case the original numbers play out as you'd expect. I did not test t2 torp defense for this but I assume it is similar and as the calculation below shows, even with frigates hitting constantly, t2 torp defense is objectively better than t1 torp defense in every way

UEF T2 torpedo defense on the other hand has 6400hp and 150dps at the cost of 1080 mass, making it equivalent to ~3.8 frigates; 1 t2 torpedo defense will take ~14.3 seconds to kill a frigate, 4 frigates (mass equivalency rounding up) will take ~32 seconds to kill the torpedo defense, 2 frigates will take ~64 seconds to kill t2 torp defense. Given its superior range to frigates and the amount by which the time necessary to kill the torpedo defense increases as each frigate falls and despite its stationary nature, it probably wins outright cost vs cost given its range, making it objectively better in every way than t1 torpedo defense albeit at higher cost (since t1 torp defense doesn't equal or outrange t2/t3 navy anyway frigates are the primary factor here).


Moving on from frigates...

Destroyer vs Battlecruiser
Facing down a UEF battlecruiser with a mass equivalent number of cybran destroyers means you'll have ~3 destroyers. At a combined 330 dps (ignoring the effect of torpedo defense on the 100dps per destroyer added by torpedoes), it will take a group of 3 destroyers ~75.75 seconds to kill a battlecruiser. A battlecruiser, at 584.18dps will kill 1 destroyer every ~10.3 seconds, handily winning significantly cost vs cost against cybran (and presumably other faction's) destroyers; making frigates a far more likely to be cost effective counter to battlecruisers (even if you lose a fair number of them at range you simply lose destroyers too fast to do a significant amount of damage; although it should be noted that battlecruiser veterancy levels are at 25/50/75/100/125 so a couple of battlecruisers dealing with mass equivalent amounts of frigates will likely vet up at least once from wherever they are at)

[ZLO_RD]

also in practice it is hard to make many frigates to shoot single target, also if you just run away with destro continuosly torpedo damage has enought range to kite frigates and to damage them significantly

i often go little bit closer to enemy with my destros to utulise torpedo damage...

also in real game situations there could be multiple destroyers, and when frigates will fight them they will damage both at the same time so if in some case you choose to retreat or you just had not enought units, enemy may not even loose much but just end up with many damaged destroyers...

[Rogueleader89]

also in practice it is hard to make many frigates to shoot single target, also if you just run away with destro continuosly torpedo damage has enought range to kite frigates and to damage them significantly

i often go little bit closer to enemy with my destros to utulise torpedo damage...

also in real game situations there could be multiple destroyers, and when frigates will fight them they will damage both at the same time so if in some case you choose to retreat or you just had not enought units, enemy may not even loose much but just end up with many damaged destroyers...

Ah I did not take the difficulty of making multiple frigates hit the same target into account but that makes a lot of sense and probably has a huge impact on fighting t3 units, thanks for pointing that out; though I am curious if you would suggest making t2 over t1 to combat them in a real game? With proper support a destroyer group should do much better against a battlecruiser than the numbers play out but wow are those numbers are a lot lower than I expected their performance to be. I know vs battleships you make things like hover and sometimes frigates, was less sure on battlecruisers. I did include torpedo damage in the cybran destroyer dps (and yeah destroyers should always beat frigates if you have sufficient numbers and kite them), most of this stuff on navy for me personally was to figure out when to/not to engage torp d, what sort of numbers I'd be looking at for an even engagement against someone who was rushing t2/t3 navy at a faster rate than myself, and in general how to deal with battlecruisers outside of spamming battlecruisers/battleships back at them. Speaking of which... (yay tangents..)


Battleship v Battlecruiser
Edited to correct error in damage output (dps was right but damage per volley was off, makes a big difference), and take into account the lack of reloading on the initial shot, apparently I just can't get this one right

Battlecruiser stats in first post..
UEF Battleship = 9000 mass, 51000hp, 9000 damage every 20 seconds assuming all shots hit (450 dps)
A Summit should kill a neptune in ~2.7 shots, so 3 shots really with a tiny bit of leeway on missing projectiles, so, given that there will be no reload before firing the first shot, it will take a summit with no micro on either side ~40 seconds to kill a battlecruiser. A battlecruiser on the other hand has 584.18 dps (no huge delay on firing) and will kill a summit in ~87 seconds; the battlecruiser costing less but having significantly less range (80 compared to 150, or 80 to 100 if you are thinking about aeon battleships here). Battleships can't kite for very long since the Neptune's speed is 4.25 compared to 2.5 for the summit (or 3.6 for the omen), but this shouldn't matter much since a battleship will handily kill a battlecruiser before it becomes a huge issue; assuming the first shot hits while the battlecruiser is approaching (as it should in most cases), the battleship is a very cost effective counter to the battlecruiser (Aeon battleships likely won't get quite the approach duration of the other battleships, but they do 3000 damage every 5 seconds so they should manage to kill a battlecruiser every ~47 seconds assuming there isn't a reload prior to their first shot, still more than enough to be an effective counter)

[Reaper Zwei]

I happened to try battlecruisers vs. battleships one time. It didn't work out that well.

[Ceneraii]

If you are considering early engagement (~first few units built at tech level) you have to take cost of the naval fac upgrade into account as well with disparate tech levels.

[IceDreamer]

Frigates V Torpedo Defense
If you seek to protect your naval facilities with torpedo defense, a UEF t1 torpedo launcher has 1700hp (more than the other factions by varying amounts <= 100) and does 75dps (same as all torpedo defenses). It costs 350 mass and is thus roughly equivalent to 1.25 frigates. Assuming both engage at close range it will take a t1 torpedo defense ~28.2 seconds to kill a uef frigate. It will take ~34 seconds for a single frigate to kill a t1 torpedo defense; given the cost difference, this is very close to mass equivalent but likely does favor the t1 torp defense in the end.

UEF T2 torpedo defense on the other hand has 6400hp and 150dps at the cost of 1080 mass, making it equivalent to ~3.8 frigates; 1 t2 torpedo defense will take ~14.3 seconds to kill a frigate, 4 frigates (mass equivalency rounding up) will take ~32 seconds to kill the torpedo defense, 2 frigates will take ~64 seconds to kill t2 torp defense. Given its superior range to frigates and the amount by which the time necessary to kill the torpedo defense increases as each frigate falls and despite its stationary nature, it probably wins outright cost vs cost given its range, making it objectively better in every way than t1 torpedo defense albeit at higher cost (since t1 torp defense doesn't equal or outrange t2/t3 navy anyway frigates are the primary factor here).

These stats don't mean much I'm afraid, given that frigates cannot aim properly at either structure (Bug caused by lack of any valid target bone for the weapon, large % of shots miss entirely due to no aim bone and firingrandomness). This is one of the major issues addressed by the hitbox fixes coming soonish, so this fight will swing significantly to the Frigates favour. The balance team will probably increase defence power to keep the status quo.

The rest of it's really nicely presented

[Rogueleader89]

These stats don't mean much I'm afraid, given that frigates cannot aim properly at either structure (Bug caused by lack of any valid target bone for the weapon, large % of shots miss entirely due to no aim bone and firingrandomness). This is one of the major issues addressed by the hitbox fixes coming soonish, so this fight will swing significantly to the Frigates favour. The balance team will probably increase defence power to keep the status quo.

This is a very good point, so I've gone and run a couple tests ingame. At maximum range this is definitely true, UEF frigates (this may differ with other frigates depending on how the hitbox problem works exactly...) seem to miss about 50% of the time when shooting at t1 torp defense (its more random than this but over a couple tests it averaged out around this figure or slightly better than), so halve frigate dps as compensation for this and the torp defense comes out pretty nicely ahead in mass equivalency, with the t1 torpedo defense being able to kill ~2.4 frigates in the time it takes a single frigate to kill the torpedo defense. However, if the frigate moves closer it eventually stops missing (at point blank range it never misses, doesn't have to be completely point blank to achieve this either though), in which case the original numbers play out as you'd expect.

I did not test t2 torpedo defense in this way, though I suspect it likely works the same. Also fun side note that took me a second to realize in testing, not having line of sight on frigates means the radar jamming on them essentially makes the torp d never hit, so definitely don't place it randomly in the water somewhere

[Deering]

Summit volley is 9k not 3k. so actually 3 volleys to kill a battlecruiser -> 40 seconds + shell travel time (still assuming all hit)

[Ithilis_Quo]

Battlecruiser stats in first post..
UEF Battleship = 9000 mass, 51000hp, 3000 damage every 20 seconds assuming all shots hit (450 dps)
A Summit should kill a neptune in ~8.3 shots, so 9 shots really with a tiny bit of leeway on missing projectiles, so it will take a summit with no micro on either side ~180 seconds to kill a battlecruiser.

you are wrong here.

Summit take 9000dps every 20s instead of 3000dmg
use this table is better http://content.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/

And btw BS hard won. I was wondering why ppl think that BC is OP so i try worst cybran BS against BC (only 1000mass less) i go on close range (adwantage for BC) and still BS alive with cca 30%hp

[Rogueleader89]

Summit volley is 9k not 3k. so actually 3 volleys to kill a battlecruiser -> 40 seconds + shell travel time (still assuming all hit)

you are wrong here.

Summit take 9000dps every 20s instead of 3000dmg
use this table is better http://content.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/

And btw BS hard won. I was wondering why ppl think that BC is OP so i try worst cybran BS against BC (only 1000mass less) i go on close range (adwantage for BC) and still BS alive with cca 30%hp

Apologies, I am using that table, but I originally did the battleship calculation with the cumulative dps of all of its guns instead of the damage per volley, I must have missed 2 of the guns on recalculating it, correcting the earlier post.