T3 artillery : Time to eliminate the RNG?

[BrickedKeyboard]

One thing I've noticed is that certain artillery (especially Cybran) are so inaccurate that the outcome of a game can easily be determined by the RNG. Pure luck, and not skill, determines whether a shot misses the target totally or slams into an antinuke or opposing artillery, taking it out and ending the game for the loser.

This luck factor, and the fact that cybran is so inaccurate it often misses by huge amounts, missing even the large shield covering an important target, makes Aeon the only artillery that is competitive.

The factional diversity - Cybran gets more splash, etc - doesn't mean anything when certain faction artilleries don't even hit the target.

So I'm gonna propose something crazy. Like all balance suggestions, I'm probably going to get a horde of responses by high rated players - who have a vested interest in changing nothing about balance - that this is a bad idea. But, here goes :

Make all artillery accurate enough that they hit a target the size of an opposing t3 artillery with the main shell or the splash, every shot. That way, game outcomes won't be affected by the RNG at all.

That is, artillery with a large splash would have a circular error circle that is wider than artillery with a smaller splash. This would take a little math to tune right. I'm actually not quite certain what the rules are for damage in this game - if a cybran shell has a splash radius of 10 meters, and lands 9 meters from the edge of an opposing t3 artillery, will it damage the arty or not? I'm uncertain if the edge of the target has to be inside the splash circle or if the splash circle has to overlap with the center of the target.

In any case, that's easily figured out, and the math would be simple :

It's probably edge based. So if a t3 artillery is 15 meters across, and an artillery has a splash radius of 10 meters, then at that artillery's maximum range, the most that artillery could deviate from the target would be 25 meters.

A little trigonometry should let you easily solve for the maximum angular deviation permitted.

Flame away.

[Aurion]

If you let the game go to t3 artillery killing bases than that is a risk you've taken. On most maps there is absolutely no need for this and if it's on thermo and you're Cybran you should use a Scathis.

[da_monstr]

The inaccuracy of cybran artillery is more often than not an ASSET. It denies huge swathes of land, since it's unpredictable. Even better, it's next to impossible to try and dodge its shots. Aeon arty is a sniper rifle, Cybran is a shotgun. Both are deadly weapons

[Exotic_Retard]

thats useless in most cases:
t3 arty is usually used to kill bases and buildingf of interest.
by that point in the game, bases are shielded
the artillery shells need to break the shields and then land in a gap in between the shields in otder to do any damage
if they dont the shields just regen and youre back to where youve started
essentially there are more usefull shields as the dps is spread over a larger area.
you can test this in a sandbox game by setting up a cybran arty and some t3 shields - you will see that gaps are created but the next shell doesnt land in them (usually)

this means that arties with a low accuracy are much worse at damaging bases, even with the same dps.

aoe helps hit more shields at the same time and thus increases effective dps, but the spread on arties is too large atm to make up for that.

http://content.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=UAB2302,URB2302,UEB2302,XSB2302

if that wasnt enough, they all cost the same and aeon arty has 200 (30%) more range and 140 (30%) more dps than the cybran one.
the dps difference is amplified further with t3 pgen adjacency

so based off that, the aeon artyt is the best t3 arty in the game, and should always be built if possible, its only disadvantage is its slow fire rate and aoe, despite which it level bases much more effectively than the other factions' alternatives.


to combat this, either there needs to be a larger difference in price, (not sure whether to nerf aeon arty, buff other, or a combination)
or the stats need to become less different, personally i would try the price difference, because faction diversity

[ZLO_RD]

ehh, can't go away without posting... t3 arty is not useless, it destroys t1 t2 armies easyly, makes opponent flee

it is not very effective against single units with high HP, but even percivals and bricks will fall fast enought, or be weakened...

Cybran t3 arty is just awesome, sera is fine, uef kinda ok and can counter other artyes cause of superior accuracy, Aeon t3 arty only good against stationary or shielded stuff, shooting while moveing feature is nice... but damage is just way lower than on other artyes

some arty usage
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... PT5TFo7fzS
2945504 (last game when i abused arty... but it were mostly hoplites who won the game)

[IceDreamer]

No. It's part of the faction diversity. I would be OK reducing the innaccuracy by a small amount, but a SMALL amount. The point of T3 Artillery is not laser-elimination of a single target, for that use stratbombers. No, they are about long-term attrition damage. It doesn't actually matter what you hit, as long as you hit something, which you will. The longer the game continues under fire, the more likely you will lose from all those incoming shells. It diverts attention, time, and resources rebuilding stuff.

I DO have a huge issue with the Aeon VS Cybran comparison though. The whole slow-fire vs rapid-fire is OK. Accurate low-splash vs inaccurate big-splash is fine. But more DPS? More range?! WTF man, how does Aeon get away with that, I thought all four had the same range. Aeon do NOT need more DPS and more range. All the Arty should be same DPS, same range, with differences in splash, accuracy, rate of fire, damage. Only if you have differences in cost too, THEN you can have range and/or DPS change.

[belatedcube]

I think the biggest misunderstanding with this thread is that some people are talking about T3 mobile arty and others T3 stationary arty.

my opinion on mobile arty: cybran has the best because of its massive aoe. the inaccuracy actually makes it better because the units are more likely to be moving and otherwise it could feel like using a mavor to kill a lab. the others are better at beaking firebases so I would think that is what balances it out.

my opinion on stationary atry: I really have no idea because I have only been in one game with a finished T3 stationary arty.

[E8400-CV]

This luck factor, and the fact that cybran is so inaccurate it often misses by huge amounts, missing even the large shield covering an important target, makes Aeon the only artillery that is competitive.

Euh, no

The Cybran has a much higher rate of fire. With the aeon; if it takes down your shield, you have forever to just build a new T2 shield or just wait for a T2 to recharge.... With the Cybran only half that time.

Also; the damage radius: Aeon: 5, Cybran 9: Since radius means we are talking about area.... pi*9^2 (Cybran) is more than 3 times larger than pi*5^2 (Aeon). This means that the area the damage is applied to, is a lot higher. If you are intending to kill an smd; you only need 1 hit for that. The Cybran higher RoF helps there. The bigger damage area helps too. With Aeon; even if you break the shields, chances are huge you won't hit the smd.

Of course, at maximum range, the Cybran one gets worse more than the Aeon compared to shooting at say half range.

Oh, and since we seem to fancy percentages (Aeon arty 30% more range and dps); Cybran arty has 224% more damage area!!!!

[KrogothFTW]

Naturally, the Cybrans' larger radius helps some with the inaccuracy. I did some trig, if the firing randomness affected only yaw, then the cybran is more accurate than some others, because of its damage radius. In any case, can't you build it at a forward firebase and increase its accuracy?

[gnatinator]

I would 100% agree that luck has no place in a competitive RTS.

The higher splash of Cybran artillery is offset by the significantly less damage output.

All other factions are diversified and already balanced using less splash, offset by higher concentrated damage.