General Air Balance

[Exotic_Retard]

since everyone is going on about air and t3 aa in aeolus chat, i figured id outline some of the problems with air atm:

t1/t2 static anti air cant hit t3 air.

this sucks.
its inconsistent.
has no logic.
messes up balance.

http://www.faforever.com/faf/vault/replay_vault/replay.php?id=2450648
this is a replay where i tested this.
if you dont want to watch, this is what happended (not in any order):
cybran strat flies over and drops a bomb on 23 static t2 cybran flak. result: survives with 1/2 hp, having flown over 9016 mass worth of flak.
thats the most rediculous thing ive seen in a while. (comparison send 3 percies at 9k worth of t2 pd and see what happens)

cybran asf set on a patrol route above 1 flak. 3 minutes later its still there.
same for t1 aa, same things happens. t1 aa marginally better but still unbelievably bad.
added more flak for each of those until asf dies. flak better to be spaced, putting flak next to each other makes no difference.

flew a horde of asf over 23 static cybran flak.

0 died.

although some got damaged, so its not 100% useless, only 80% of shots wasted :/
second pass, 6 died.

the reason is because ASF (and other t3) are so fast that the AA has serious problems hitting them, especially due to the very low projectile speed.






solution?
make projectile speed for statik flak to be 45.
make asf max speed 25 -> 22 (added benefit of being able to use other air units like transports more often late game, there are not enough drops imo)
strat max speed 17 -> 16 (this isnt as important but it would help, and i know this could cause problems with its bomb drops so its ok if this is unchanged)
spyplane max speed 30 - > 28 (they outrun sams atm, thats stupid, also if you cant scout something with 10 scouts you deserve to not know whats there.)


i also have a lot of other things to say regarding air but i just wanted to make sure eveyone knows about this one first.

also t3 mobile aa sucks because these sorts of problems wont be solved ever if it gets introduced (given theyre still not solved, this is pretty realistic)
and an air rebalance will eliminate the need for it while fixing a lot more things as well.

this thread is gonna be full of flame soon isnt it

[FireMessiah]

totally agree that t1 aa pd are useless compared to the ground firing equivalents.
so frustrating watching flak after flak totally miss that early strat bomber you didn't see lol.

and for ASF, pilots fly through this wall of flak simply laughing "cant touch this" ><

projectile speed really does need a boost for t1.

t2 is a tough one, because I actually prefer a small group of t2 aa than t3 sams. this is versus strats anyway, I like the additional AoE. I think they can kill a group all grouped up for a snipe attempt, better than t3 sams.
ofc again, vs ASF its still useless.

thats the most rediculous thing ive seen in a while.

having just watched your replay, I have to agree.

[Resin_Smoker]

+1

[Zock]

You should test mobile flak, as stationary one was useless for a long time and just got adjusted in last patch, but not neccessarily adjusted to work against t3 air. The flaks work different for the factions and are good against different things. The values might need some finetuning (hard to say when no one builds them ), or the stationary flak could be used in a bigger air rebalance, but for now, using them to prove things is not a very good idea.

You can't change (mobile) flak projectile speed as you would mess up with balance between flak and t1/t2 air, which is quite good.

You can change t3 air speeds, but its more complicated to get it working well, even though lower speed has additional positive effects on air (positioning gets important, if you just make air slow enough, it might be possible to bring a lot of strategy into it except just a number+micro game, which is one of the biggest problems with air imho)

The speed is something that was a possible change in last balancepatch afterall, until the big changes of air got canceled completly due to lack of manpower/testing.

But since the voting is done, i don't think discussing will have any effect. Maybe once T3 AA is tested and played with somewhat, it will be easaier to make a point that it doesn't work very well - unless it does. And if it works and magically solves all air problems, it will be a much more elegant change then rebalancing whole air, even when adding new units should be the last option, and it is possible in theory to do it without - no one was able to do it so far (inlucidng myself ^^)

[Exotic_Retard]

You should test mobile flak

i did, it works fine, it can hit t3 air and kill strats. its possible to use strat micro to survive 2-3 passes and drop bombs while doing so, but i think thats fine, micro should be rewarded.
overall im happy (and always was) where mobile flak is, and im not suggesting any changes to it.

but not neccessarily adjusted to work against t3 air

well cybran definitely wasnt
i think this is problem regardless of what happened to it in the past (balance wise) because of the reasons i mentioned in the OP
given that 2 percies easily die to 40 blazes (a unit not adjusted for that job)
it should be more than reasonable that static flak, an unit designed to kill air units, should be able to easily destroy strats when there is so much of it. (23vs1 strat)

but for now, using them to prove things is not a very good idea.

i am using them to prove that t2 static flak cant hit t3 air, i think thats reasonable :/

You can't change (mobile) flak projectile speed

i think you misunderstood me:
i dont want to change mobile flak. all im doing is highlighting a problem between t3 air and t2 static flak, and suggesting a possible solution.
i dont think i even metioned mobile flak in the OP :/
sorry if im wrong but i get the feeling you didnt read it carefully

you would mess up with balance between flak and t1/t2 air, which is quite good.

il take your word on t1/2 air balance being good.
however, if t2 flak already hits air properly, increasing projectile speed should make much difference (can hit before => can hit after)
if t2 flak cant hit t1/2 air properly, then i think thats also a bad thing. a plane going in a straight line directly above flak of any kind should recieve 100% of the flaks dps.
if it doesnt, the flak is an inconsistent, and broken unit, and this needs to be fixed either way.
i want t1/2 air balance to remain the same, so a flak fix (if needed) should be compensated for.

having said that, no one builds static flak anyway, suggesting something is wrong with that unit (it still sucks), and a buff in the way of an increased projectile speed would not be bad imo, but this is not what im trying to suggest, just putting this thought out here.
also here you are talking about mobile and not static flak, so i think this sentence is somewhat irrelevant. sorry.

You can change t3 air speeds, but its more complicated to get it working well, even though lower speed has additional positive effects on air (positioning gets important, if you just make air slow enough, it might be possible to bring a lot of strategy into it except just a number+micro game, which is one of the biggest problems with air imho)

i am aware of this and i agree.

And if it works and magically solves all air problems

i seriously doubt that having t3 mobile flak will make t2 static flak hit t3 air.
this is one of my main concerns regarding it - it will only solve some of the problems (mostly making it easier to do t3 land pushes without air)

while others such as:
ASF restricting all other use of air too much (transports, non-aeon-gunships)
air staging almost useless
ASF have so much fuel, its as if they dont have a fuel bar

will remain forever because t3 mobile aa will make things look better, but not deliver a complete fix.

thank you for your reply.
i agree with some of the things you said, and im not sure why you said others, i think you misunderstood the reason i posted this: to show a problem exists and to make people aware of it. (and also say that mobile t3 sams wont fix this )

[pip]

Please redo your tests with all t2 static flaks, you will see they are not the same. Cybran Static flak has huge AOE but is not supposed to counter strat bombers (SAM for that). However, Cybran static flaks will kill clouds (interceptors, ASF) faster than the other t2 static flaks. That was part of the last balance patch = faction diversity for static flaks. The static flak that will have the best stats to hit strat bombers are probably Aeon ones (less AOE, but faster projectile).

45 muzzle velocity for static flaks will make SAM useless, but also air totally useless after t1.

[Ithilis_Quo]

take care for dont be deleted, because as you know is not balance period so every good idea would be locked, because someone would must read it and it is prohibed.

Ps: I fully agree, air in faf is poor balanced in general

[BRNKoINSANITY]

Actually, it is a balance period Not only that, but air is in the balance currently. Try out the mobile t3 AA and see how this changes the game play, and then later we can worry about this stuff ^ after we find out what the patch does.

[Exotic_Retard]

(just in case anyone gets confused: im only talking about static t2 flak here. mobile flak is balanced imo, and im not mentioning it here.)

as suggested, i have redone my test for the remaining 3 factions, and the aeon flak is indeed the best for killing strats with - 10 flak managed to kill one, just about.

this is the flak for different faction in order form best to worst.

aeon - the faster projectile speed does help a lot, and this is much more reasonable preformance but imo still a bit low, given that 4k mass of flak have trouble killing one strat.
uef - again, faster projectile speed, 20 flak kill the strat in one pass. i wouldnt call that an amazingly efficient counter.
sera - lower aoe than uef = strat survues 20 flak with 750 hp. would you spend 8k mass on something and have it not bale to beat 2k mass of something?
cybran - see the OP. this is the worst, due to the lowest projectile speed. with cyb and aeon flak its possible to snipe someone with 5 starts, knowing they will each have 2 passes.

not supposed to counter strat bombers (SAM for that)

i have a problem with this way of thinking.
true, SAM are the counter to strats and do it well.
true, flak is not supposed to counter strats, its for t2 AA
BUT, when having 23 flak spread out doesnt kil a strat, its too inefficient, it means you might as well reclaim your flak as soon as you can build sams.
this is not the case for pd. t2pd is worse than t3 pd but it can still kill percies if there is 9k worth of it.

blazes are not supposed to counter percies. 9k worth of blazes kill 2 percies with 30 of them left (out of 40)

t1pd is preferred over t3 pd when tanks are very near your base, even t3 ones. why? becuase it can still do damage to them, despite not being made to counter t3 tanks.

this trend is seen all over the game and if you cant see that, and think that cybran flaks performance vs t3 is acceptable and balanced then im sorry. you're wrong.

the point is, just becuase something isnt designed as a counter for something, it doesnt mean it is completely unusable against it.
cybran flak is (almost) a complete waste of mass vs strats, and its usefullness overall is lowered by the fact that it cant even damage ASF effectively, meaning it will become useless after 10-15 min of building it.
also because aeon flak can do so much better, its much better flak overall imo, decide for yourself whether thats imba or just a feature of aeon having the best air related things - i wont give an opinion on this.

However, Cybran static flaks will kill clouds (interceptors, ASF) faster than the other t2 static flaks.

interceptor: yes, i agree.
ASF: i tested this and its not true; i would say, the effectiveness of cybran flak is bad. in the OP, horde of asf flew over flak and none died, but a lot were damaged. second pass, 6 died.
the asf were all damaged though so it wasnt 100% useless.
aeon flak killed ~30% of the ASF in the first pass. it is far better than cybran, but still not what i would expect from making such a huge mass investment. (~9k mass)
this also supports the fact that projectile speed is the most important when concerning flak hitting planes.

45 muzzle velocity for static flaks will make SAM useless, but also air totally useless after t1.

having tested i agree this is too much. however, i stand by what i said earlier, the current cybran flak sucks against strats to an unreasonable degree.
i think a projectile speed of 35 will be better now. thank you for making me test this.
if you want faction diversity imo the absolute minimum speed is 30. so for faction diversity values could be as follows:
cybran: 30
uef/sera:33
aeon: 35
preserving all other stats as they are now.

thank you for your post.

[Zock]

Yes i misundestood slightly, i thought you have problems with air and the static flak is more an example, but if this really your main concern, is the fact that its not good vs strats/ASF really a problem?

-Is the flak useless or too bad without beeing able to kill t3 air?
-Is t3 air too strong, and buffing flak is a way to change it in a good way?
-Will buffing flak actually do much, if it is still worse then SAMs (which needs to be, or SAMs get useless)? You usually don't have big numbers of stationary flak. Why? Not necessary because it is bad, but just because 1-3 flak (possibly supported by a shield) are enough against very big numbers of t2 air.

The fact that unit A is really bad against unit B is not really a problem in itself. Torpedolaunchers are not good at all against battleships and so on. Is it because Flak is supposed to counter Air? But again, Torpedolaunchers are also supposed to counter navy. It can be a problem, but it doesn't have to be. You got a point that most units are worse, but not useless against higher tech level in terms of design. But it is no dogma, and it is arguable if its not given, as flak is still pretty badass against any kinds of t3 gunships, transports, and to some degree ASF (your tests don't seem so bad, but i don't really want to say they are good enough or not without testing myself more)

Now it wouldn't be bad if flak were slightly better, while still not beeing good, against ASF and strats. But is it needed? It would propably have almost no effect in real games imho. And at least in my opinion there are much bigger problems with air..

however, if t2 flak already hits air properly, increasing projectile speed should make much difference (can hit before => can hit after)

This is not true though, increasing projectile speed will buff it a lot against t1 and t2 air too. It would hit a lot more often then before. So even if you have the opinion that it is an issue that is important to fix (i wouldn't think so), it won't be so easy to solve it either.

And if you find mobile flak vs t3 air fine, suggesting to decrease t3 air speed is not a very good idea, as this will make it a lot more vulnuable to mobile flak too, and mess up the balance there.