Naval Balance Discussion

[Ithilis_Quo]

And for the tempest this is true to. Building units is useless since Engiemod.
The tempest costs 24k mass and has 60k health. For nearly the same mass i get 3 summits with more than 150k health.

On tempest its different, because tempest can build enginer for fast reclaim party. What is important on some situation. building navy with tempest is nearly ussles because tempest on that time cant shot/move...

And tempest is very fine units, its strong enought, and its superior submarine. Tempest will kill 3 sumits if would not be groundfired. What is also bad, and balance rape is that can be very easy damaged with groundfire, because its very huge units. So its not ussable as submaine as its suppost to be.

[Plasma_Wolf]

I'd say the tempest is just fine as it is. By just comparing the mass cost and health, you leave a great deal out of it. I assume that the sentence is just a bit wrong, when you say "for nearly the same mass, you get 3 summits" and that you mean "for the same mass, you nearly get 3 summits"...

Anyway, the tempest does almost as much damage as 2 summits, with an incredible area of effect. The summit's AoE is impressive, but nearly as good as the Tempest's. In case you lose intel at some point, for whatever reason, the tempest also still works on its own.

I'd like to point out something about that ship building ability. Naval battles are the slowest of all and if you are fighting somewhere in the middle of the sea, bringing in reinforcements is something you should do constantly, or risk losing a very large portion of the sea if you lose the front line. The tempest can build these reinforcements rather quickly. Having to build them at the front line is obviously very risky though. However, they can build cruisers on the spot, where air units are the biggest threat to a tempest.

In addition, the T1 engineers come by the dozens, by the looks of it, so when an opponent has to bring in engineers by air transports, you can literally spawn them on the spot.

The tempest can also be built in very little time with just a few engineers. Granted, you don't have the ability to build anything else for a while, because of the insane mass drain, but killing engineers usually isn't an option, to prevent your opponent from building tempests. A command unit or support command unit can build in between the time of your opponent discovering it and sending the units for a quick kill. I bet that you've suffered several times losing a different experimental before it's built, not to mention how annoying (at the best) it is to lose all engineers assisting the factory for your three Summits.

As for the CZAR, I can't remember the last time I used it's beam as a weapon, as opposed to it's crash ability. However, if you're going to make it a viable experimental because of it's beam, then you should definitely reduce the crash damage's AoE, or reduce the crash damage in particular. It's painful to lose half the base or half an army to the CZAR's crash, it's painful to lose half the base to it's beam, but to have both would make it overpowered.

[Zoram]

I don't build tempest not because of any balance issues, but because they're a buggy pain to use, and the time it takes to get them unstuck every five minutes is just not worth it for me.

As for the factory aspect, I can kinda get that they stop producing once moving, but the queue being cancelled each time you move, makes it too much finicky imo (same goes for czar, fatboy, and megalith).

[belatedcube]

I think that the aeon destroyer is kinda op with the torps. Wouldn't it be better to have the vespers with that dps instead of the destroyer?

[Plasma_Wolf]

The UEF have the shield boat and the cooper, with the best ant-torpedo system in the entire game (maybe apart from the megalith) to compensate for that.

[Vee]

BTW, I think aeon tmd on ships may be bugged. TMLs usually fly straight past it in my experience.

[BRNKoINSANITY]

To revisit the "useless abilities" thread, I had another thought. All the other factions' amphibious units can fire on the water and therefore are useful vs navy. Cybran is completely screwed if they get pushed out of the water. Buffing the torpedo ability by a wide margin would make them more equivalent to the other factions. On wagners, this would make them slightly worse than other amphib tanks, but still very useful in naval battles, and for the brick it would be a multi-ability worth losing to the percival over.

To repeat, since the cybran amphib land units can't really fire the main gun and the torps at the same time, it is not compounded damage.... you can use one OR the other. Total DPS brought to bear would not be unbalanced. This would kind of put it in line with the AA toggle switch on the t1 mobile AA.

[dstojkov]

to change wagner from amphibious to hover is not that hard ...

[Reaper Zwei]

to change wagner from amphibious to hover is not that hard ...

Why do that though? I like BRNK's idea better because that way you can still use wagner as that tank that can pop up unexpectedly on any island.

[-_V_-]

I think that the aeon destroyer is kinda op with the torps. Wouldn't it be better to have the vespers with that dps instead of the destroyer?

Isn't the aeon destro equipped with depth charges and not torps ? And so far I think there is no such thing as anti depth charges. Would that be why you think it's OP ?

depth charges, torps, whatever! either way it kills underwater units.

I think it is just really stange and kinda imbalanced that the aeon DESTROYER (and not T2 sub) gets an awesome anti sub weapon when the uef destroyer is getting completely destroyed.

ps I won't be saying anything more on this subject (that way I can't make a really huge fool of myself which I can easily do).

It does make a difference, since there's no antii depth charged unit in the game.

For the dub vs destro talk, well the cybran destro is also superior than t2subs and u get a lot of freebies with it so...

Note that the uef destro loses to 5 t1 subs, maybe even 4 lol. You HAVE to have a copper if u foresee subs. T1 scouts reveal subs, also if u can't target with frigs well..