Veterancy Discussion

[TheKoopa]

"so your experimental crushing 100 of my t1 tanks isn't equivalent to it crushing 100 t3 percivals; the answer to an experimental shouldn't be "o I had better ctrl+k my entire army of lower tech units (or send them running for their lives) and only use this handful of percivals to fight it"

First of all, T1 units give 1 vet point while T3 units give something like 3 or 5 (forgot the exact number).
Second of all, why are you trying to counter a T4 with T1 units? You should be countering with your own T4 or spam lots of T3. (T3 units mass-for-mass absoloutly destroy experimentals.)
Third of all, UEF is pretty strong, haven't you looked at the T3 navy? Absolutly rapes everything on the field. And shield boats effectivly keep your weak T2 navy alive long enough to get said T3.

[Rogueleader89]

"so your experimental crushing 100 of my t1 tanks isn't equivalent to it crushing 100 t3 percivals; the answer to an experimental shouldn't be "o I had better ctrl+k my entire army of lower tech units (or send them running for their lives) and only use this handful of percivals to fight it"

First of all, T1 units give 1 vet point while T3 units give something like 3 or 5 (forgot the exact number).
Second of all, why are you trying to counter a T4 with T1 units? You should be countering with your own T4 or spam lots of T3. (T3 units mass-for-mass absoloutly destroy experimentals.)
Third of all, UEF is pretty strong, haven't you looked at the T3 navy? Absolutly rapes everything on the field. And shield boats effectivly keep your weak T2 navy alive long enough to get said T3.

Missed the slight veterancy difference, good to know though not mass equivalent by any means, I have no qualms with an experimental utterly destroying t1 and t2 units, I have qualms with the fact that throwing those units against an experimental in a desperate effort to somehow do some damage is in some way more detrimental to me than ctrl+king them.

And yes, UEF t3 navy is crazy strong, I'm mostly using their t2 navy as an example of navy in general as its the clearest example at a given tech level, but you could make similar arguments for other factions at t3, aeon battleships for instance, or the fact that cybran's t3 navy is essentially scus building harms while battleships and megalith offer some support. I don't think navy should be a timing game, I shouldn't have to skip t2 navy as fast as I can as UEF/fight a desperate holding action any more than you should have to try to wipe me out of the water early with another faction, I'm all for factional differences, but they shouldn't be so great that one navy utterly fails for an entire tech level of the game, or that uef's t3 navy is almost indisputably the best navy in the game, I want differences that maintain balance, not that break it horribly to favoring one side over another at a given point in the game.

[Krapougnak]

Veterancy The way units instantly get buffed up with veterancy is the biggest problem in the game right now IMO. It's stupid, frustrating to play against, and generally a poor design. There must be a better way.

Yeah I'm not a big fan of Veterancy either except maybe for ACU. There are mods outside there that allow to remove veterancy utterly or to give it only to the ACU. Maybe worth a try ?

[da_monstr]

In regard to veterancy, I would prefer to see a very high regen for a few seconds, for example 1st vet on monkeylord should not be instant hp, but gain those hp by means of 20 seconds of 500hp/s regen,(numbers just example) meaning it would not matter much if ml were engaged by a few t3, but would matter if he survives.

[Ceneraii]

I always wondered if it would make sense to change veterancy by removing instant heal, still give max hp, significantly more regen and some damage bonus, to make it interesting to keep units with veterancy alive and group them together to make a kind of elite squadron, rather than have it function as emergency heal, but I don't know if this is feasible and whether it would be balanced.

[Ithilis_Quo]

It is feasible, and its better balanced whiteout instant heal as with.
This theme was here in past too. 3 years before cca zep remove instant heal, but ppl was cry about what the hell how is a posible that my soul riper dont get 9K after kiling some engies. So take it back.
before cca year i was again opening this theme, but still was ahead of time.

But see that now it is probably right time to remove this curiosity.


PS: rapidly repair would make problem, that units can be imortal and that its not good.

[IceDreamer]

In regard to veterancy, I would prefer to see a very high regen for a few seconds, for example 1st vet on monkeylord should not be instant hp, but gain those hp by means of 20 seconds of 500hp/s regen,(numbers just example) meaning it would not matter much if ml were engaged by a few t3, but would matter if he survives.

This is what I've bean leaning towards, and can be done. We remove the instant heal to start with, instead putting the maximum HP up on its own, and we should also increase that maximum HP per veterancy level relative to the current to increase veterancy potential. Then we increase the static regeneration values as well, they should be higher because this is not just a stupid gameplay issue, it's a significant nerf too. Probably a 50% increase in regeneration is in order. Then, on top of that, when a unit gets a level it should have, as you say, a short period of, say, 10 seconds of extremely high regeneration, perhaps even 1000 HP/s + . This is my proposal when it comes down to it.

I'd also love to have the balance team look into special veterancy on a per-unit basis, because the code is ready to do things like increase DPS, grant shield, change ranges etc. Some of those are really bad plans, but some of them, like say part of Fatboy or Titan's veterancy going into additional shielding, or having Sniperbots increase their ROF or Damage instead of HP... Could be interesting!

Also, the way veterancy is gained and calculated needs a massive overhaul, it's too simple at the moment, and pretty stupid. I think it should be built to be based on a unit's own mass cost. Something like level 1 = killed its own mass in enemies, level 2 = killed 3 times its own mass, level 3 5 times etc.

[Ceneraii]

Hmm, I didn't realize this many types of special veterancy were possible. If it can be done this could be turned into an interesting concept. It could be turned into things like 1st vet gives max hp+regen boost, second vet gives damage+rof, third vet gives a small shield, etc? <- Is by no means meant as a serious suggestion, but going by this the concept of veterancy could become much more interesting than it is now while maintaining its value.

[Ithilis_Quo]

IceDreamer did you remember time when we have similar discusion under my topic about balance, with veterancy?
you was against, and ask my teamates how low my rating is that i bring this kind of balance issue Already you push same idea.


I have it here processed. Easy to do simply and detailed :

1.2 veterancy system rework
veterancy point get not by tech level of destroying units, but depend of mass cost of that unit. Is big difference destroy scout and frigate/battleship.

1.2.1 veteranc point get on 2% mass cost of destroying units and 1% on experimental units.
Example: kill a striker 56x0.02 = 1.12 veterancy point; kill T2 heavy tank 200x0.02 = 4 point; kill T1 Land Scout 8x0.02 = 0.16 point, T2 = destroyer 2250x0.02 = 45 points; T4 GC = 27500x0.01 = 275point
Reason: only tech level of units dont show difficulty to destroy concrete unit. mass value does.

1.2.2 not instant heal after receiving veterancy level
veteran level get bonus maximum HP, and bonus regeneration. regeneration bonus increase on cca 140% as is now.
regeneration schedule:
Spoiler: hide
T1: +1/2/3/4/5 ->+3/4/5/6/7
T2: +2/4/6/8/10 ->+6/8/10/12/14
T3: +3/6/9/12/15 ->+9/12/15/18/21
T4: +10/20/30/40/50 ->+15/30/45/60/75
naval units:
T1N: +1/2/3/4/5 -> +3/6/9/12/15
T2N: +5/10/15/20/25 -> +5/10/15/20/25
T3N: +5/10/15/20/25 -> +7/14/21/28/35

Experimental units/building start with regeneration
experimental building/air +25hp/sec
experimetnal Land/naval +15hp/sec
non-experimetnal building +3/6/9 (add as react on IceDreamer argue about friendly air territory advantage)

Reasult: No regeneration and regeneration bonus (after veteran level up) differences on same class units depend on fraction as it is now. And remove regeneration bonus chaos on naval and some another units. (T1 naval have veteran regen as T1 units, T2 have as total different tech units, and T3 have same as T2, on land it is more simply and predictable, but we have plenty of exemption which have no sense) More clear, more simply and more logical system.
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 01,XSA0402
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 01,UEL0401


1.2.3 units with shield have small-big disadvantage after receiving veterancy. for this reason get them on same value as are units whiteout shield. For advantage what is going from shield they pay energy, dont let them pay for same things twice.
This is most radical see on fatboy, who is not cheaper units, but on vet level get only +1250hp where simply Percival for half kills receive +930hp, and GC for similar price get +10 000 HP
= units with shield receive more hp depend on how many % of they total armor is shield. but i would be same as other units
example: fatboy have 12500hp+20000shield = 32500 on vet receive + 3250hp instead of 1250 as it is now.
example2: obsidian have 1250+1500shield = +275HP on vet instead of +125 as it is now. look on sera Isvahor, same cost, but receive 2x more hp on vet for total no reason.

problem on 121 is that its a need rewrite veteranci algoritmus from tech level to mass value of target. I was discuse it in past with Zep, and say that it would not be a technical problem but its a problem about people who dont want change status quo.

about damage/range bonus after veterancy in past i was try to found some algoritmus, but its pretty hard if not imposible for get all units type. It must be put manualy, and that can be plenty of work, and with potencial plenty of unbalances. And for harder predictibiliy. Predictibility about units behavior is important.
We can maybe split 10% max hp rise to 5% max hp +5% dmg, but i personaly love much only more max hp, and rise standard regeneration, not shocked one.

When you go throught about that you will found that shock regeneration about 500-1000hp/sec dont solve any problem. Its very small differences that unit got more hp instantly or after next 10 second - where is still nearly imortal for crazy regeneration. player would act same, will not get exp back for repair them in general nothing change.
Much claver option is make standard regeneration better. 140% is a lot for for exchange that units not get instatnt heal. Instant heal is of course much stronger as 140% or regeneration, but it solve a problem.

[Kalvirox]

I look at these statistics and normally I shrug them off. Failing to notice them in games. But when you quote them in the quantities you do here, on this thread, I am startled by how much should be changed.