When should be a good moment to switch between fight for map

[sisso]

In latter 1v1 "loser joe's" (600 < rating < 900) I have experience a repetitive loss in big maps having some time 80% of map control.

The history is:

It's start even, and slowing I start to win territory until I get the point that I control most everything with T1 + T2 units, but I didn't know how to finish him (I am terrible sniper :/) and the game keep going. The impression that I lose only because don't finish him, but after look the score, the guys have almost doubled mass input that me. So, when I was fighting for land, I was losing the economic game.

I am trying to figure out how to know when to stop the fight and invest in eco.

A game say better that many words. Can someone take a look?

replay id
2651347

[]s,
Sisso

[Plasma_Wolf]

It always depends on the map. Not every 20x20 map feels as large as Point of Reach (I made it btw).

If you can get 80% map control with large T1 armies, then you should be able to keep up the pressure over the last 20%. If not, don't attack further, or you'll just be feeding your opponent mass, which he can use for an even better economy. The worst thing you can do with your army, is lose on the enemy's terrain. Then 81% of the mass that you spent on the army, is his to reclaim. So if you've lost a battle with 100 tanks, near or even in his base, he'll have ~4500 additional mass and you'll have nothing (4500 mass is upgrading 5 T1 mexes to T2).

So that's the choice: spend 5600 mass on tanks, lose it and give him 5 T2 mexes, or spend 5600 mass on your mexes and have 6 T2 mexes at the end. So a lost battle can result in an offset of a whopping 11 mexes.

Of course, you're asking when to choose the tanks and when to choose the mexes. Scout: you can never know for sure if you don't see what your opponent is up to. Even if you have the map control. Your opponent can quickly sense whether he's going to lose the map or not. As the losing side, you usually see that you're being outnumbered and you retreat and build up a T2 defence base. As the winning side, you don't very often see that you're opponent is doing just that. You will with just a few scouts over his base.

It all comes down to noticing the issue soon enough. If your opponent is putting more resources in the economy, you want to attack whatever unprotected mex he has and destroy it, while also upgrading your own economy. Then you'll win.

If he's building a T2 firebase: stop building T1 units, upgrade some mexes to T2 and upgrade a factory. Build Mobile Missile launchers and start the siege (with the T1 army you already had as backup). That'll ensure you at least keep the map control you have. Few players who just lost the map battle will want to break the siege. They'd rather spend more on defences and economy, to try again when they have an experimental to attack the siege army.

While you're using those MMLs, continue upgrading your economy. That's what he's doing too. Upgrade to T3 and add mobile artillery to it.

Keep scouting. If he's building an experimental, you want to have the counter to it. There are two options now. You either try to kill the experimental as soon as it leaves the enemy base, so that you can return your siege army to its job as soon as possible, or you retreat back to a place where you want the experimental to go down (you must be sure you can kill it and lure the enemy with you), so that then you can reclaim it. Then your opponent has the same issue as you've got now. Smaller army/economy and just fed a lot of mass to the wrong person.

[ZLO_RD]

oh it is easyest thing in a world, you just stop fight and start invest in eco when it no longer worth to fight

Spoiler: show

TROLOLOLO
maybe it is hard to beleave but i do same mistake pretty often, maybe in little different manner, i raid enemy t1 mexes with t2 t3 units and i leaves lots of reclaim, and making that raid not worth at all
i think it is just hard, maybe you just need to have similar eco as your opponent, and just catch up to your opponent little later cause if you have map control you will still have more eco or at least more units on the field so you can eco safely a little longer
so that was about eco...
pretty much same about tech
i do not know anything, and do not want to analyse
so as anyone would answer question "when i get t2 land?" just when your opponent got t2 land you get t2 land too...
but why? obviosly because t2 units are better than t2 and even if you will have more map controll you will not able to fight cost effectively against enemy units
btw i didn't watched replay but i hope i helped a bit
just do not let your opponent run away with eco or tech, or you will end with t1 aa against t3 air or t1 land against exps
t3 mex is 13.5 1t mexes, so if enemy have couple of those he will have same amount of mass as if you would have whole map...

[sisso]

Guys, thanks for the info. I come for a conclusion.

What is map control? It is nothing more that access to more mexes. With more mexes is less expensive to have a better eco. For a big map you need so a lot of investment to protect everything. As always in SC, if the territory don't pay the units needed to conquest, better to simple invest in what you have. I will try to focus more on eco + scout and fight less for t1 mexes in big maps to see how it goes.

For small maps is ok, each mex is a gold.

[Mycen]

Guys, thanks for the info. I come for a conclusion.

What is map control? It is nothing more that access to more mexes.

Map control isn't just about the mexes though. You also get:

More reclaim - you have more access to the map's reclaim, and you generally have an easier time snagging reclaim from any raids or attacks your opponent makes if you control more of the map.

More intel and reaction time - your forward radars can cover more area and your scouts can go further before being shot down.

More room to expand/rebuild - if your opponent is cornered in one area they can't go out and build firebases, airbases, or secondary bases in easier to protect areas. They also lose the game if they lose a battle for their base. If you lose a battle for your base but you have map control, you can start another base somewhere else and use the reclaim from your original base to set it up as you retreat.

More avenues of attack - If your opponent is cornered they have to mass their forces and then advance from a known position, forcing their way through your army to attack or do anything. If you have map control you can stage your forces in safe or hidden place, retreat from their army and then attack where they aren't, or draw them into traps, letting you do more with less. (This is only true on well designed maps though, not gap, isis, setons, etc. )


But most of that doesn't matter nearly as much as your economy. Like you said, 80% of the map isn't going to do anything for you if they have triple your income.

[sisso]

As always in this game no simple option, always a balance that you need to weight. And scout is the input for that.

I give me a priority, focus more and see what happening, what state of the game, what my opponent is planning. Noobs like me are always moving the camera and clicking trying fighting against the time


Thanks Mycen

[nine2]

If you have more map control then him then it is less expensive for you to have equal amount of t2 mexes.
a) scout him and count his t2 mexes. Always have equal amount greater than him.
b) if you fall behind in t2 mexes, and there is no immediate threat, pause everything (ctrl x) and temporarily invest everything into catching up.

Having said that there would have been times in the game where there is no threat right now, which is a perfect time to upgrade a mex. This is not in response to a magic 'time' or anything - basically there are times when you can get away with it and you need to recognize them and if you do so, you wouldn't have been left behind so much anyway.

For example on a smaller map where there is only one expansion, if you capture it and think you can hold it for a minute, you can upgrade a mex because in this case there is no penalty. This is how you can turn a temporary advantage in a permanent one. Otherwise what would you do with it? Build another two factories, which, if he retakes the middle expansion, you have to pause anyway.

So... a) upgrade anyway whenever you get an opportunity, b) keep up, c) if you fall behind fix that pronto, d) if you have map control then it is easier for you than him

[Col_Walter_Kurtz]

Seems to me that you choose to either make units or upgrade eco. Watch replays of good players you'll see them do both at the same time. Of course some things can't be combined without stalling and should be avoided, but doing everything sequentially is just too slow. also reclaim is your friend. You can never have enough t1 engineers working.

[Mr-Smith]

Thats exactly the point that makes the difference between Pro's and medium ranged player.
You need to know how good his eco is and how much reclaim he might have already got and if he is still upgrading mexen.
if he goes for t2 mexen all you need to do is get 2 more t1 mxen with mapcontrol, and be able to hold them as well.
You need a general plan of the map and what you tactic will be. if you plan on taking 80% of the map by pure t1 spam and crush him than you dont upgrade your mexens for that. if you plan on just taking 40% of the map and upgrading like 4 mexens to t2 first and than crush his t1 army with fast t2 tanks well could work as well.
But to know what is possible you need to know your enemy and how he might react, as well as the map and rule #1 : Scauting saves lives.