rocket and gatling (range) bots

[sasin]

This thread is sort of a partner to the other thread I started about whether or not players should be able to see the map first before picking a faction in ladder. One of the advantages of having the map displayed first is it allows a little more leeway in faction diversity while maintaining a balanced game. This post details a change that I'd like to see that I think would be much easier to implement fairly if the map were selected first. However, I wanted to put it in its own thread because I think even if you disagree with me about that I wanted you to consider this change on its own merits.

I was watching Lu_xun's casts of old games and saw a lot of rocket bots, particularly on the finn's game. In my experience around 1000-1800 players don't use range bots at all. In my viewings of a lot of casts of high rated players I haven't seen them built at all.

I tried to force myself to use rocket bots figuring if you stay kiting you're getting good value. I never managed to get nearly the effectiveness out of them to justify the micro. Even when dedicating like all my attention to them, I wasn't dramatically more effective, if I was at all, than I am with illshavohs with barely any micro. Is their some aspect to microing these units that I'm missing (something other than kiting and trying to stay stealthed?). Do they need a buff?

To me it seems like they do, and perhaps pillars and/or rhinos could have the slightest nerf to go along with it. I'd propose rocket bots get a vision bump to 30, and maybe drop in price to around 190 mass?

[ColonelSheppard]

Can comment on the casts, disagreeing on the rest.

[ZLO_RD]

I think t2 range bots have almost no role in the game atm. There were multiple attempts to buff mongoose, but it still kinda sux, hoplites have to low HP, one mistake or t1 arty shot or t1 bomber and bot is already about half health...

I would agree on t2 bot buff, but tanks should be stronger, than t2 bots,
and for sure no one want those gpg net times back with ton of t2 bot spam and no tank pretty much at all

[IceDreamer]

Mongoose is lined up for another MuzzleVelocity boost. It's not a major change, but it should allow it to get the DPS working at maximum range again.

If you want to come up with buffs for them, ZLO...

[sasin]

I think t2 range bots have almost no role in the game atm. There were multiple attempts to buff mongoose, but it still kinda sux, hoplites have to low HP, one mistake or t1 arty shot or t1 bomber and bot is already about half health...

I would agree on t2 bot buff, but tanks should be stronger, than t2 bots,
and for sure no one want those gpg net times back with ton of t2 bot spam and no tank pretty much at all

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to suggest that range bots be the only viable units for the two factions, just that they at least be usable. The only reason I'd suggest a slight nerf to the other tanks is that the game seems relatively balanced right now, so if uef and cybran are getting this t2 buff they could use a slight nerf to the tanks to keep the balance about the same.

[sasin]

Mongoose is lined up for another MuzzleVelocity boost. It's not a major change, but it should allow it to get the DPS working at maximum range again.

If you want to come up with buffs for them, ZLO...

Why not make them slightly cheaper?

[IceDreamer]

Why not make them slightly cheaper?

This muzzlevelocity change is half glitch/bug/behaviour, half balance. Changing costs is a pure balance change, and I don't have that authority.

[Zock]

It's not so easy to solve this. FA doesn't reward building special units much, when you can have allround units that do the same job slightly worse, but other jobs on top. LABs have the same problem. Rocketbots also have the problem of needing a lot of micro, so if you make them viable for medium players with okayish micro, they will become much stronger in the hands of very good players, and to avoid them getting OP you can only make them that much viable for the medium players in return.

If you just buff them, they will likely either just get a bit better at being irrelevant, or replace tanks as main army component again.

What would be needed to really solve the issue is to introduce a soft stone-paper-scissor system for t2 direct fire units, I tried to get some changes in this direction through in some older balance patch, but it didn't get too much support, the changes got in, but softened too much to be impactfull. I had some ideas how to solve this, but I was not really sure if they could be implemented successful, even when creating a balance that rewards mixed armies/different units for different situations, the additional organization effort for the player might always lead to one-type armies (unless you create a hard counter system, but FA doesn't really work like that and it would change the "spirit" of the game imo). Still better to have the option for more then one one-type army, but it would've been worth a try to go a bit further.

This would require at least some, maybe a lot, of follow-up changes to all t2 tanks though. I don't think you can get a really good solution without doing that, then better keep it as it is. They are not even that bad in the right hands, there are just not too many of such hands.

[sasin]

It's not so easy to solve this. FA doesn't reward building special units much, when you can have allround units that do the same job slightly worse, but other jobs on top. LABs have the same problem. Rocketbots also have the problem of needing a lot of micro, so if you make them viable for medium players with okayish micro, they will become much stronger in the hands of very good players, and to avoid them getting OP you can only make them that much viable for the medium players in return.

If you just buff them, they will likely either just get a bit better at being irrelevant, or replace tanks as main army component again.

What would be needed to really solve the issue is to introduce a soft stone-paper-scissor system for t2 direct fire units, I tried to get some changes in this direction through in some older balance patch, but it didn't get too much support, the changes got in, but softened too much to be impactfull. I had some ideas how to solve this, but I was not really sure if they could be implemented successful, even when creating a balance that rewards mixed armies/different units for different situations, the additional organization effort for the player might always lead to one-type armies (unless you create a hard counter system, but FA doesn't really work like that and it would change the "spirit" of the game imo). Still better to have the option for more then one one-type army, but it would've been worth a try to go a bit further.

This would require at least some, maybe a lot, of follow-up changes to all t2 tanks though. I don't think you can get a really good solution without doing that, then better keep it as it is. They are not even that bad in the right hands, there are just not too many of such hands.

Appreciate the thoughtful response. I think you hit the nail on the head with

Rocketbots also have the problem of needing a lot of micro, so if you make them viable for medium players with okayish micro, they will become much stronger in the hands of very good players, and to avoid them getting OP you can only make them that much viable for the medium players in return.

I feel like that's often one of the hardest parts of game design in general, and this is a particularly tricky case. One basic way to do so would be make changes that make bad micro less costly. Like zlo said, "hoplites have to low HP, one mistake or t1 arty shot or t1 bomber and bot is already about half health..." If they just had a little more HP, then they wouldn't be as terrible for average players while not receiving as significant a buff for good players, right?

They are not even that bad in the right hands, there are just not too many of such hands.

This is the other thing though. I watch a good amount of sup com casts of ~2000 players and I rarely if ever see rocket bots/mongeese. Even in your games, although some may be out there that I haven't seen of course. It just seems to me like even when perfectly microed they aren't much better than rhinos and whatnots. And if in top players hands they still aren't built ever and they're such a micro intensive unit that they get worse quickly as rating goes down... that's not so good.

This would require at least some, maybe a lot, of follow-up changes to all t2 tanks though. I don't think you can get a really good solution without doing that, then better keep it as it is.

I personally have a vision of what I'd do with t2 units in a perfect world (make a lot more variety across the t2 tanks), and I'm sure a lot of other players, yourself included, have a good vision. Setting that aside though, given how useless rangebots are right now, surely a minor hp buff or the like, would either make the situation slightly better or leave it the exact same, right? It couldn't make it worse, really, could it?