Thoughts on eco/mass fabs mods

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Sorry, if this post should have been placed somewhere else. If so, let me know please and I will move it there. Also, apologies for the long text following now :p


I just had a game, that made me think about the mass fab and eco mod (Seton's air spot). I played a player who plays well. However, so far I think I have had a better starting routine and got my eco going faster. This time, things were different. Reason: he used the mass fab/eco mod.

What does this lead to? Imho there are 2 possible results:
1. I use the mods as well to be able to compete with my opponent (no, it is not possible to toggle 2, 8, 17 or 30+ engis on and off for a split of a second over and over again without the mod). it is like playing against a computer/AI. It won't make a "mistake", it will not miss stopping the fabs and at a pre-defined e-level - humans on the other hand will make mistakes here.
2. I kick players from the lobby. This ideally would presuppose that I can see who uses a mod and who doesn't. S o far, to my knowledge, this is not possible. Ultimately, this would result in fewer games for some or all (worst case scenario) or/and the mod being used less frequently.

Therefore, I vote for making it visible for the host (maybe even for everyone in the lobby) who uses mods. For now, I will tell players not to use the mod before I start the game. If they secretly do it and I notice it in the replay, they may be banned from future games. Not ideal, but I don't see an alternative.

Also I want to point out that the idea of the mod not making a big difference compared to someone who doesn't use it, is flawed for u can't say how much weaker/stronger the same player would be without the mod. Maybe the difference would make 2 ASF in the first 15 min. Maybe 10. That's quite a difference for 15 min. Later, when u also have to micro your units, e stalling could cost u 10 ASF being built for the stall slows your production down significantly.


On the forum it was mentioned that hotbuilds are similar. I disagree, for hotbuilds do not work the way that they prevent you the entire game from stalling due to bad microing. Getting mass fabs results in a positive mass income. But it comes with the cost of getting close to e stalling - this cost-profit nature is what demands your attention. A risk the mod totally takes away from you.
It is ironic how many condemn Supreme Commander 2 for being too mainstream, simple and generic, while not minding the complexity of SC1 partly being taken away due to an AI taking control over your actions and deciding for you. Since you do not have to worry about microing your fabs/your engis supporting a fac, you can put your attention elsewhere (e.g. scouting, microing).


Here are some other ideas for mods:

• A mod that, once radar has been scouted, and you send a stealth unit through the radar area, keeps a distance to the radar (drives/flies around it)
• A mod that activates stealth only when being in radar radius (scouted beforehand) (energy only spend when necessary)
• A mod that makes your destroyers/tempest submerge when their HP dropped down to a certain percentage due to non-torpedo damage
• A mod that micoes your ASF (flying tight circles)
• A mod that automatically retreats your units when being under fire while no target in sight or simply out of reach
• A kiting mod that automatically keeps your units at a certain distance to your target

Is this where this rather complex game should be heading?

[stalewee]

My understanding was that there is no way for FAF to tell whether someone is using an eco mod, which is why Zep decided not to ban them. It's all client side.

[zeroAPM]

I recall (old gaming magazines an stuff) that the game was meant to have the option of automating eco or something to that effect

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If it is not possible to see who uses a mod, then I think it should be banned entirely. It is like doping, and thus imho cheating.

If we sticked to what the game was "meant to have", then we probably should toss all/most of the patches and, thus, go back to the vanilla version of the game (unless there is a detailed list of what Chris Taylor and his team wanted to change in the game).

[Gorton]

it is like playing against a computer/AI. It won't make a "mistake", it will not miss stopping the fabs and at a pre-defined e-level - humans on the other hand will make mistakes here.

I don't agree with this. I actually find that it does make bad mistakes, pausing thing you need done for less important things instead. A human is much better at that.

Also I want to point out that the idea of the mod not making a big difference compared to someone who doesn't use it, is flawed

Since you do not have to worry about microing your fabs/your engis supporting a fac, you can put your attention elsewhere (e.g. scouting, microing).

I don't really see why. In 1v1, you have to do alot. all the time. In my experience the mod actually makes this worse.I really don't think it's required.

On the forum it was mentioned that hotbuilds are similar. I disagree

That's right, hotbuild only allows you to speed up what you can already do.

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I don't agree with this. I actually find that it does make bad mistakes, pausing thing you need done for less important things instead. A human is much better at that.

If I got it right it's always possible to shut down the mod in game. So, if you have some priorities, u can do things manually. Most of the time, however, you simply can put your eco-autopilot in charge, no?

I don't really see why. In 1v1, you have to do alot. all the time. In my experience the mod actually makes this worse.I really don't think it's required.

Since I am not a big 1v1 player, I can refer to Seton's air spot experiences only. I cannot decide whether it's the same or not for any other spot/map/1v1 game.

All I can say is that it is such fun to micro 300 ASF and still watch your fabs and toogle them on/off. It is what Dark Souls is about: the fun that comes with the loss-reward of your actions and decisions. I am very confident I could tweak my ecoing simply by using those mods (and practice how to use it). But I refuse to do it and sadly will have to kick all those using it to push their mutli-tasking skills that way (actually limit them by outsourcing).
Maybe I am wrong, but isn't it simply impossible to e.g. get ARAS as fast without the mods as with them?

[BRNKoINSANITY]

Blackster, I am speaking from experience here, as I for a long time refused to use the mods, then tried them, and then went back to not using them.

The ONLY games the eco mod is useful in are long, drawn out, huge map games. The eco mod will destroy you in 1v1 and 2v2. It has some bugs in it, it hinders you when you go after the finer points of management, and it sometimes cripples you if it shares out mass when you are not expecting it to. I think the only people who really get the most out of this mod are the ones that play in pairs or groups and actually practice timing with it, and even then it doesn't accomplish anything you could not do yourself. I just got rid of the thing because over the course of about 100 games played with it, I never once came out ahead of where I would have been without it. I just got tired of dealing with it.

The only thing I use is the UI mass fab manager mod. I do like this one, and yes it probably is right on the edge of a "cheat mod." However, you have to remember that it only helps you in the very late game as mass fabs are ridiculously inefficient. If you choose to build and use them, then you are offering the opportunity to your opponent of #1 a chance to attack while your mass is going elsewhere, and #2 some nice, juicy, explosive targets for him to hit. By the time in the game where this is actually useful, eco has reached the macro stage and really is not that vital anymore. My advice would be to use it and get over it. It is pretty much a setons only mod that doesn't apply to the rest of the game.

As to ZePs position on this, it is a combination of "it doesn't help you and it possibly hinders you..... why do anything about it?" and also "if I blacklist these mods, people will rename the mod and use it anyway... it is not really hurting anything, so it is not worth the bother to try and enforce a ban."

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Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts ^_^

Just a few remarks:
- as i wrote multiple times: i talk about setons air spot specifically (only thing I can talk about) - so yes, EXACTLY the kind of games u mentioned the mods may make a difference in (huge maps, long games) - mass fab spots often are not that easy to reach by anything on Seton's
- being "right on the edge of being a cheat mod" imho should lead to a serious discussion with an statement by those in charge. I read the other threads and its just a puddle of discussion with everyone saying "cheers" in the end and leaving.
- why not make visible who uses which mod? There probably are even more mods out there "supporting" you in game which most of the players have never ever heard about. Transparency? Nope. (I guess everyone can check in the mod vault...)
- e throttling is terrible. I can't stress that enough. I saw that replay of mine and while i was constantly struggling, walking the thin line between a well flowing eco and stalling (which also means fewer mass, slower production), my opponent was blinking 100 engis on and off all the time. this is not fair, its uneven. Lets say you have 2 identical players with identical team players: I may be wrong, but I think the one with the mod would always beat the one without on Seton's air spot. He gets an advantage. Maybe a fairly little one, but big enough with players comparable in skill. And if it annoys you, temportarily turn it off. Its not like you activate it and u have to stick with it all game with all negative side effects. You just take the best and leave the rest.
- still I am waiting eagerly to see someone getting ARAS as fast without the mod as with the mod.

Questions/suggestions:
- why not let the data speak? If possible, we could analyze how often players with the same rating win when using the mod and when not using it (including his opponent using it or not)?
- Why not have a poll, so users can say: ya, mod is ok, or no, mod is not ok? Too much work?
- why not have mods "white list", so only approved mods of such scale can be activated? Too much work?

Personal note (not trying to troll or start a major discussion):
I am dissapointed how even/especially pro players seem to use ANYTHING to get an advantage: mass fabs-/e-throttling-mod/ahwassa-/t1-hoverbomb/czar groundfire ASF/mass intis/ASF as smd/blocking Yolona Oss with satelltie (i bet most don't even know this is possible). I think this behaviour is kinda abusive and a direct attempt to profit from flaws/glitches despite them knowing it doesn't really make sense what they are doing.

[Sheeo]

A whitelist of UI mods is possible to do, and would probably effectively stop a lot of people from using it.

It would also be possible to circumvent though, and then you're just unevening the playing field by only enabling those who know how to circumvent it to use it. At the moment it's 'fair' in the sense that anyone can use the mod. Then you need moderators to supervise and ban users who do that.

Why bother restricting stuff and making more political overhead just because a few setons players believe they have a huge gain from this? (Not everyone does)

By all means let the data speak--you're welcome to do the analysis.

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I cannot analyze data I do not have access to.

There are mods that as far as I can tell many consider at least close to cheating. Anway, since every one can do it, it makes it kinda even. Discussing the issue is a "political overhead" now; ignore/use the way to go. Ok, got it.

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