How much should units be tweaked each patch?

[sasin]

Up front, I wanted to say that I think the balance team, zep, and everyone have done a great job with balancing the game, and in no way am I trying to bash them. I appreciate the work and love the product. Also, I'm not complaining about big changes like engy mod or t3 air tweaks or potential double drop bomb removal. This thread has to do with individual unit tweaks patch to patch, and was particularly inspired by the aurora changes this patch and aeon t2 last patch.

I think in general, people might tend toward over-correcting in patches. Everybody wants to chase the perfect change right away, and I'm sympathetic to that. Furthermore, if we under-correct, or even correct just right, people won't change their strategies that much off the bat, and that's less satisfying. However, I think we'd be better served making changes slowly, even nerfing the same unit in consecutive patches if the initial changes are too small, for several reasons.


1.) Ultimately, there is a wide range of solutions to a problem that improve balance. Opting for a relatively large change is more likely to produce unintended side effects. You never know how one balance change will spill over into other aspects of the game and create the need for further changes. By making smaller changes, we minimize this problem. Furthermore, the imbalances in sup com are relatively small. If, over time, we make only undercorrect, each change will be an improvement. Ultimately, it means that over time the game will always be improving and we may not need to make as significant changes in future patches.

2.) The larger a change is, the more it breaks the continuity of the metagame/playing experience for everyone. While in a way this is desirable because it's nice to see your changes have an immediate impact, it also disrupts the game, especially for people who aren't following the development as closely.

There are other reasons too, but those are a good starting point. This isn't supposed to be an insult to the balance team, zep, or anyone else, and no I didn't do a lot of balance testing. Everybody puts a lot of time into this and I really appreciate that, and I'm very happy with the product. Overall, everyone does a great job. It's just a suggestion trying to be helpful so that we can do an even better job.

[Anaryl]

I disagree.

When you have a situation like we do with bombers, where changes are implemented that really only the balance team and a few others then take advantage of; it indicates balance failure. There also seems to be a massive bias against balance reversion. Some balance iterations have been so broken that we should have just reverted, and rebuilt the patch.

Furthermore, we are not the games developers, merely it's custodians. This means there is a rightful bias towards balance conservatism, but the opposite is carried out in practise.

The game doesn't need to be "better" - it does not require improvement - patching should focus on bugs or known issues - and if a solution cannot be unequivocally said to be an improvement, it should be discarded. As it stands, the more unconventional a balance idea, and the "larger" (to use your terminology) the change, the more popular it is.

[Mycen]

Wait, what? You said you disagree, but it sounds like you two are of the same mind for the most part... ?

I certainly agree with this though:

Furthermore, we are not the games developers, merely it's custodians. This means there is a rightful bias towards balance conservatism, but the opposite is carried out in practise.

[Anaryl]

Wait, what? You said you disagree, but it sounds like you two are of the same mind for the most part... ?

I disagree that they have done a good job.

[Ze_PilOt]

Furthermore, the imbalances in sup com are relatively small.

Only because we did a lot of changes in a rather short period of time.

The reason was the state of the game when we took it :

3599 patch had useless T2/T3 tiers for land, no T3 tier for navy (and some would argue : 2 factions only for navy), no T2 tier for air, no SCUs, all-mighty experimentals, and overall, was very unidimensional.
I'm not even talking of artilleries,....
We basically doubled the roster of units in the game.

That was a long road, and some adjustments are still needed (the air play is, in my opinion, still completely broken).

But I'm not sure we will go further actually, as it's a constant fight against clueless people that think we are doing a bad job (hopefully a small minority, but sadly way too vocal) and it's too tiresome.
Maybe they should look back before saying that..

Also, the next big thing is Nomads implementation, and it will enough work already

[Ze_PilOt]

When you have a situation like we do with bombers,

The situation is in your head. That's not our concerns to fix it.

Some balance iterations have been so broken that we should have just reverted, and rebuilt the patch.

Again, your very biased opinion.
If it was true, why wasn't it reverted by vote in the next patch period?

Also, the patch period are opened to every one, and everything is discussed publicly. So if you are not pleased and think it's a bad work, it's also your fault, as much, if not more, than the balance team (the BT is there to listen to the players and their playtest, if they are telling crap or nothing, they can't do anything about it).
It's true it's easier to not make mistake when you do nothing...

[Anaryl]

When you have a situation like we do with bombers,

The situation is in your head. That's not our concerns to fix it.

That's demonstrably untrue. It has been the biggest balance issue in FAF by far. It's been the most discussed issue bar none.

Some balance iterations have been so broken that we should have just reverted, and rebuilt the patch.

Again, your very biased opinion.
If it was true, why wasn't it reverted by vote in the next patch period?

It's not biased on my part considering you introduced the change.

Also, the patch period are opened to every one, and everything is discussed publicly. So if you are not pleased and think it's a bad work, it's also your fault, as much, if not more, than the balance team (the BT is there to listen to the player and their playtest, if they are telling crap or nothing, they can't do anything about it).
It's true it's easier to not make mistake when you do nothing...

Are you saying that I've never contributed or attempted discussion? I'm sorry that you are disappointed that I no longer felt like bashing my head against that particular brick wall. So no, the onus is squarely on you/the balance team.

Let's not forget that everyone who disagrees with you in more than a token way ends up getting banned. So, let's be honest here, how much balance participation is there really?

[Ze_PilOt]

That's demonstrably untrue. It has been the biggest balance issue in FAF by far. It's been the most discussed issue bar none

Again, in your head.
Biggest issues, far more discuted : T3 air/restorers, mercy, T3 naval.

It's not biased on my part considering you introduced the change.

No change was introduced, by me or anyone.
Try to double bomb in 3599. Tip : it works, and it's even easier as the reload time is shorter.
So, yes, biased.

Actually, if we follow your logic, it's our duty to respect how the game is and never change it.

Are you saying that I've never contributed or attempted discussion? I'm sorry that you are disappointed that I no longer felt like bashing my head against that particular brick wall.

And still, you are currently doing it. And on every occasion possible.

What I meant by "never contributed" is that you never did it in the right way : By giving proof instead of feelings.

Let's not forget that everyone who disagrees with you in more than a token way ends up getting banned.

Do you feel banned?

So, let's be honest here, how much balance participation is there really?

As much as you want to put in.

Also, may I remind you that you've tried to be the head of the balance team and that almost nobody voted for you?
Do you think I've biased the vote, or that the community doesn't believe you are right for the task?

And by the way:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5537#p55897

Even there you didn't talk about the bomber.
For you it's the BIGGEST ISSUE EVER, and still you don't bring it up.
Talk about consistency..

If you were elected as balance team leader, you wouldn't have changed it, so the blame would have been on you and only you, I presume.
As you weren't, I guess it's easier for you to blame the fantastic work of the elected team..

[dstojkov]

about the bomber in 3599 yes you have shorter reload time BUT ... you don't have a script that adjust the acceleration so that you can pine point precision everthing. I told you from begining this script will solve a pb and introduce some others...

Anaryl is right on the supposed "good" work of the balanced team.

I NEVER saw a roll back after trying some stuff in previous patch and this especially for air T3. Unless you cant afford a better gameplay stay with what people where used to play.

[pip]

There were tons of changes reverted but people don't remember them because they don't follow the balance process. A third of the planned changes of 3629 were reverted and never made official but even in official patches, changes are often reverted or seriously amended (the latest being the aurora).

If we were to listen to Djostkov, we would have still broken bombers missing their first bomb drop, but able to drop every 2 seconds when abused, so useless in normal use and utterly OP when microed. And among many other amazing things, we would have his loved OP Restorers with their 3599 version, "the best balance ever" version, and OP mantis able to turn with super fast speed, like in a previous FAF patch that caused a shitload of complains. But oh, wait, the Djostkov mantis was reverted, which is weird since there is supposedly never any reversion in FAF.

I could go on with the list of changes that were reverted or amended, but the saddest thing is that people like Anaryl will cry about a single change they don't like, when they agree or don't mind with 95 others, and still judge the balance process is bad.

And nobody was ever banned for not agreeing with Zep about balance stuff. Djostkov is the living proof of that, and gosh, I find it atounding that Zep never banned him even though he keeps complaining about FAF in FAF chat and promotes an alternative lobby that exists only in his imagination.