Unfun ladder maps

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Unfun ladder maps

Postby Joly » 04 Feb 2014, 18:49

I have to say I really like this new ladder system where we can pick the maps we like the most and get a higher chance of playing in them. However we dont always get those (which is ok I guess) but there are a couple of maps which are in my opinion dumb and lead to very unfun games:
- Cluster freak(extremely luck dependant and ends up in someone quiting under 10 mins when they have less expansions since they have about 0 ways to fight back)
- Lava Highground and shloob1 (maps that generally end up in a draw)
- Moonshine(decided by the 1st tank battle and impossible to come back after you lose the upper bridge)
Hardffa and crazyrush -( I think these 2 maps could be included here by some but I've had very fun games on them)
I wanted to know your opinions on these maps, and if you think they should stay on the ladder pool. Also I challenge any of you to find a good replay of a decent even game that lasts 10 min+ on any of these first 4 maps.
Since almost everyone talks without knowing the maps here are some replays(cant search for any Shloob1 in the vault for some reason)
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Last edited by Joly on 05 Feb 2014, 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby nonzero » 04 Feb 2014, 19:09

For me it's just plain too many ladder maps. I re-discovered FAF in Nov 2013 and played ladder for a bit. The large number of maps in ladder favors those who have been playing the game the longest and makes it impossible for a newcomer to advance on the ladder. I remember way back 7 or 8 years ago when FA had just 7 maps in ladder, I thought that was too much back then, now there are what - 50 or so? That's insane and who has time to explore all these maps unless you devote your entire life to the game. As an example of how fewer maps would even the playing field consider what would happen at the extreme - one map only, for example: Winter Duel. With just one map in play the current ladder rankings might well be turned upside down. Of course with just one map in play any noob can copy a BO and with a bit of luck win against the top ranked, so a few more are needed to differentiate by skill. But 50!?
You can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you just might find - You get what you need - The Rolling Stones
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby RoundTabler » 04 Feb 2014, 19:11

Ummmm...thats why you get to pick the maps you want to play, and not pick the ones you don't want to. This is build your own ladder day. :)
If you don't want to play too many maps, just pick the ones you like.
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby Epson » 04 Feb 2014, 19:12

If it was workable I'd like to see them remain but with a veto or if both players haven't selected them then they don't get used. I'm global rated 1300 and 1v1 1000 so that's the level I'm speaking from. At these levels and lower they can actually be fun because neither of you have a clue what your doing - especially crazyrush. Once one opponent learns the optimal build order though they just become frustrating.

It's a concept I'm going to post on more but its called Counter Play - and basically "a mechanic in a game should increase the number of meaningful choices for both players". That's the player it is being used by and used against.

These maps don't. They give the player with the optimal build a different 'mechanic' that the other player cannot respond to or if he has the build as well it's a draw.
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby RoundTabler » 04 Feb 2014, 19:15

Thats how it works...if you don't have them selected, you don't play them. However, Zep did add a function that if both players don't have ten maps in common, it gives them a random map. This is so you can actually find someone to play against on the ladder.
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby Epson » 04 Feb 2014, 19:19

'Veto' as in reject the map. Won't ever be random or play without both players agreeing.
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby Lame » 04 Feb 2014, 19:25

Joly wrote:I have to say I really like this new ladder system where we can pick the maps we like the most and get a higher chance of playing in them. However we dont always get those (which is ok I guess) but there are a couple of maps which are in my opinion dumb and lead to very unfun games:
- Cluster freak(extremely luck dependant and ends up in someone quiting under 10 mins when they have less expansions since they have about 0 ways to fight back)
- Lava Highground and shloob1 (maps that generally end up in a draw)
- Moonshine(decided by the 1st tank battle and impossible to come back after you lose the upper bridge)
Hardffa and crazyrush -( I think these 2 maps could be included here by some but I've had very fun games on them)
I wanted to know your opinions on these maps, and if you think they should stay on the ladder pool. Also I challenge any of you to find a good replay of a decent even game that lasts 10 min+ on any of these first 4 maps.


cluster freak is an air only map - win air win the game - if both are playing an equal level its not uncommon that both have a similar amount of islands (1 taking middle and the other both sides) that situation is somewhat balanced as the sides have mass and 2 hydros while middle has a little more mass spots and somewhat puts you in a better position

dont see how sloob is a draw map given the importance of arty aswell as defensive walls - on top of that you can make a play for side mexes and mountains

lava highground is a draw map - yet you have lost twice on it


the problem is you are discussing preferences here for example i think that 100k+ reclaim maps are broken but you cannot ban maps from ladder because you dont like them
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby nonzero » 04 Feb 2014, 19:34

So if I select say 7 maps I'd like to play because I don't have time to research an optimal BO for the other 43 maps then I'm pretty much guaranteed to never play on maps I selected and get random maps every game? Crap, in one of my last ladder games I remember playing on this map I never saw before and wondering why my scouts and engies I sent out kept dying until I realized there were T2 PD on the map that were not visible by just examining the unexplored map at the beginning of the game. Shortly after that I just quit ladder.

OK, so I'm just complaining and that's not constructive so I'll offer a solution: a ladder system where the higher you rise in rank the more maps you are expected to play. At the beginning you start with 1 map, as you advance you get additional maps. If you reach the level of Zock you play all the maps. This would work because the similarly ranked players could be matched against each other without resorting to random maps because they have similar map pools.
You can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you just might find - You get what you need - The Rolling Stones
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby pip » 04 Feb 2014, 19:43

You need to select at least 15 maps to be almost sure to play on one of them. Practice these 15 maps and 90% of your games will be on a map you are prepared for. If ever you have no common map with your opponent, the map will be selected in the pool of the most commonly chosen maps, i.e. no surprise either. The ladder system will never change again, what can change is some more maps and maybe the withdrawal of some maps (but I doubt it : you can already not play maps you don't like by not selecting them).
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Re: Unfun ladder maps

Postby Vee » 04 Feb 2014, 19:46

This is this reason that I started to play 1v1 custom games instead of ladder...but I agree with Lame that different players can have different preferences. How about an option to select 5 maps that you absolutely do not want to play on? Is this a possibility?
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