just curious

[Reaper Zwei]

Had a conversation with ShadowKnight in chat. He says that there is too big a difference between t3 and t2 air and that it needed to be fixed. His fix was a roll off time added to air factories. Only a little but enough so that t2 would still be viable for some time before t3 reaches some critical mass I suppose(I'm paraphrasing). He said that he talked to 12 of the top 20 players here and that they agreed with this statement. Now I'm curious what people think: is there a problem? and if so is this a good fix and why? or is there some other fix and why would that one be good?

On a different yet similar note he also lamented that late game air battles just came down to who had the most ASF's and that he thought that this was a problem. Once again I'm curious: is this a problem? and if so what could possibly be done to fix this?

[Tex]

Umm.... Well, With the exception of aeon, I don't think ANYONE makes t2 air for the purpose of air superiority. And the difference with t3 to t2 air is pretty much the same as t3 to t2 land, and t3 to t2 navy. Its meant to be that way. And I doubt roll off times will do anything. With the new addition of HQ's, I doubt you will even notice a difference besides a 10 second delay as a second t3 factory is added. Also, "talked to 12 of top 20 players and all agreed." That sounds kind of sketchy. No names, and a 100% success rate for a topic that never seemed to be a problem before. It seems like a 'fix' to a non-existent problem. Speaking as one of the 20 top players, I don't think this is a concern. (Other top players, feel free to bash me for not knowing whats going on)
Also, with your last statement, late game air battles are 9/10 times determined by ASF micro if the ASF numbers on opposite teams are even remotely close. Last time I practiced my asf micro, my enemy had 100, I had 100, and he killed my first group with 85 left over, then my 2nd wave of 100 with 50 left over. I won on the 3rd wave with about 20 ASF left over. This shows two things: One, My ASF micro sucks balls. and TWO, ASF Micro is KEY to winning air fights.
I don't see any problems here, but once again, I could be wrong

[Reaper Zwei]

Well those were some of my thoughts as well. His deal was that he was comparing ground to air. when you get t3 ground it takes time to get to the front and make a difference but with t3 air you can just put all your buildpower on it and have loads of ASF's in no time and they can then overwhelm the opponent's t2 air even if they have a lot of it(these are his words. I'm once again paraphrasing). My own opinion on the topic is that except for maybe Aeon t2 air is more about air to ground than air to air.But it did make me curious what people thought hence why we are here. As for my second question I Guess I should rephrase: he was lamenting that ASF's were counterable only by other ASF's. Anyway he railroaded me with his arguments and then went to bed before I could counter so that's another reason I created this topic.

[ZLO_RD]

somehow when i play 1v1 it is very hard to make transition to t3 air fast, your asfs just die to swarms of t1 inties

You not just have to halt all air production for like 2 minutes to get RAS, but then you have to mass like 20 or more asf before you can start killing swarm of t1 cost effective...

I am talking about situation when one player goes for many t1 air and then looses air couse his opponent was doing same but less eco, and have to go t3 air, and even with eco its just hard to win air, better build t3 bombers to force t1 loose fuel

[Kof]

It's not just a question of making a T3 air fac (or facs). You need loads of build power to produce ASFs at a decent rate and masses of power (which requires a lot of mass and bp).

As Vor_Tex said, your point is not relevant at all except for Aeon. Also I agree about ASF micro, that's one of the critical factors - along with ASF numbers, site of battle (AA type and quantity in the vicinity) and not getting ambushed.

I think it's fine as is. Consider this scenario:
Two opposition Aeon air players
player 1 rushes T3 mainly
player 2 goes T2 and makes swiftwinds and mercies/FB/gunships whatever.
player 1's team is vulnerable to snipes until minute 12 minimum.

I don't see any problem there. Game could be over by the time player 1 has produced his first ASF.

[Cantor]

ShadownKnight probably thinks he can get air control with T2 fighter bombers. It's very common for (low rated?) players to spam massive t2 fighter bomber forces. The reason they are weak in air fighting is because they are also bombers. If they were good at air fighting in addition to bombing they would be OP. So yes big fighter bomber forces lose to low numbers of ASF.

As for t1 and t2 being obsolete when t3 air is out, that's not true. If you have a big swarm of interceptors or a medium swarm of aeon t2 fighters they can fight off ASF for a while. I would say that ASF is not more effective against interceptors than t3 land is against t1 tanks. In fact in 1v1 it is usually a dangerous gamble to go t3 air, whereas for t3 land it's much safer.

[IceDreamer]

It's got nothing to do with what I think. (And who the hell uses FBs as ASFs????) I'm a collator of opinions at the moment, and that's the dominant opinion at the moment. What ZLO says above doesn't tally with what I have on record from chatting to him last week either, though what he's said above isn't exactly clear...

[Voodoo]

Can you tell us the names of from these 12 pros?

[IceDreamer]

I have comments on various subjects from Zock, Blackheart, LuXun, yourself voodoo, Isen, Crazed, ZLO, Gala, congreve, and I thought I had some from VoR-Tex as well. About 70% of the suggestions, opinions, and other junk I've collected are either un-named (I wasn't keeping track to start with) and/or other players not in top 20 (Of whom I've spoken to all). Brainfart, TA4life, mr-Smith, Sheppard, Mozart are some other notables ive got stuff from. Of all opinions, the Aurora has the highest number of hits with 'Concerns' as I call them, followed by T3 air dominance and, since PilOt released the stats, the UEF's low score.

[Blackheart]

Comments about various stuff = / = "dominant opinion in one subject"
The crusader against t3 air is as we all know CrusaderChariotCrazed (=CCC), probably Zock joined him aswell but the others have as far as i heard either a split opinion or dont support your argument. I personally dont think there is a problem about t3 air