Torpedo Defence as T3 Subhunter balance?

[IceDreamer]

I've had an idea! First though, I need to know how many units have (Effective) Torpedo Defence properties. Any takes for listing off the top of your head?

Atlantis?

[BRNKoINSANITY]

Perhaps you should go read about the units in the database and draw your own conclusions?

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/

[IceDreamer]

Because I was sure Atlantis had torp defence, and it wasn't listed so I assumed it wasn't a weapon...

My bad

[IceDreamer]

OK then... By faction, the units with Torpedo Defence are:

UEF T2 Destroyer
UEF T2 Torpedo Boat
UEF T3 Battlecruiser

Cybran T2 Destroyer
Cybran T2 Submarine Killer
Cybran T2 Stealth Boat
Cybran T3 Armoured Assault Bot
The Megalith

Aeon T1 Frigate
Aeon T2 Destroyer
Aeon T2 Submarine Killer
Aeon T3 Missile Ship
Aeon T3 Sonar
The Tempest

Seraphim T1 Submarine
Seraphim T2 Torpedo Launcher
Seraphim T2 Destroyer
Seraphim T3 Subhunter

A fairly even spread, with UEF at a disadvantage.

One of the units in this game which recieves the most angry words is the Seraphim T3 Subhunter. I am not sure it needs a nerf, but from the many games I have played and watched, I have to say it does behave a lot like the 3599 Restorer, in that it completely dominates an entire theatre of war. Nothing can touch it, and perhaps this is correct, but at the same time, nothing seems able to defend against it for any length of time either, and I don't think one unit should have both these qualities.

My solution? Change the Subhunter's firing cycle. It currently fires four torpedoes 0.9 seconds apart, then takes 1.3 seconds to reload, equating to an average of 1 torpedo per second. I recommend changing this to fire 2 missiles, 1.8 seconds apart, then taking 2.2 seconds to reload, and double the damage of each torpedo. This way the unit is unaffected against many targets, is evens stronger against the majority of subs thanks to much more frontloaded damage, but is far less overwhelming in large numbers because the torpedo defences of the defender are having twice as much of an impact.

This should be exactly the kind of subtle change called for in a situation where a unit seems OP, but it's not definitive.

I also think I've missed something because UEF can't be at that much of a disadvantage... If they do indeed only have three units with the technology, I recommend adding a rudimentary system to Atlantis to make things a little more even, and to give Atlantis a little more of the underwater presence I truly think it deserves.

[BRNKoINSANITY]

You did not take cost into consideration. UEF actually has the best total anti torpedo because of the ridiculously cheap Cooper. If you get about 15 coopers close together, they will not ever take damage from less than about the same number of subs because of the accumulated anti. Also, the coopers ALWAYS win. You can take a group of 10 coopers and park them over the top of 15 t2 subs and the coopers will win.

Also, there is nothing special about the Seraphim T3 navy other than the t3 sub. If you nerfed the sub at all UEF or Aeon navy would just stomp all over them at t3. If you want a good way to kill the subs, just use torp bombers in addition to your navy. The bombers wipe them out pretty quickly, and if the surface to use AA the rest of your navy will kill the subs no problem. In addition, t1 subs of any faction beat Sera t3 subs mass for mass. The Cybran t2 sub gets within firing range before it is seen (stealth) and so can go toe to toe in numbers. UEF can spam Coopers and render any number of t3 subs useless. If you are Aeon try ground firing with battleships or building multiple Tempests. The Tempest has the single best antitorp in the game... it takes 2 t3 subs to land one torp out of 8 per firing cycle if fired in sync, and the Tempest can easily kill 4 t3 subs while soaking up damage while the rest of your navy moves in.

[IceDreamer]

All very good theorising, but I have not seen any of that happen in any game I have played or watched. Additionally, if it were true there wouldn't be such a solid consensus amongst such a large number of players that they ruin T3 Navy.

EDIT:

After some testing...

Atlantis loses against its mass in T3 Subhunters, but only just.
Coopers totally, utterly RAPE the Subhunters mass for mass, on any scale, about 2 for 1, unless the Subhunters are kiting.
The Tempest can ONLY JUST beat 1/8 of its mass in Subhunters, and that amazing Torpedo Defence you were going on about did diddly squat. Yes, I checked, it was working properly.

The problem is the range. When kited, they kill the Coopers with no losses and at great speed. It takes 40 Cooper to become totally immune to 5 Subhunters thanks to overkill on the defences. No non-cooper unit has a hope in hell of out-defending those torpedoes. After testing, I think my idea still has merit, and should be tested.

[-_V_-]

Then you should continue testing, or check if your units bps are not corrupted

[Kurbain]

The Tempest can ONLY JUST beat 1/8 of its mass in Subhunters, and that amazing Torpedo Defence you were going on about did diddly squat. Yes, I checked, it was working properly.

That's weird. According to the Unit DB, the Tempest can shoot one Anti-torpedo every 0,5 seconds, which means it has by far the best Anti-torpedo system in the game.
It should be able to completely nullify all torpedos of 2 Sera T3 sub hunters attacking it simultaneously (as long as they don't fire directly in sync).
http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... 01,XSS0304

[BRNKoINSANITY]

You are correct in saying that the Tempest loses much worse to its mass in sub hunters, but the groundfire from the main cannon kills 2-3 t3 subs at a time if there are many of them due to large area of effect, and the torp defense helps your whole navy as it has significant range. The Tempest highly compliments your whole navy. It is not a stand-alone powerhouse.

[IceDreamer]

Absolutely agree with you BRINK, I was just astonished at how little it seemed to do to it's own mass. I thought it would kill around 50%, not 12.5%. I'm the kind of guy who listens around the community for perceived issues and tries to think of things to do which aren't too drastic. I reckon it's worth a test.

I am also going to make a mod for funs to test out a few things:

1 - What happens when I double Atlantis's RateOfFire, half its damage, and stagger the torpedo firing sequence (To make it look cooler primarily :p)
2 - I'm going to take a look at the Tempest. It's got 8 Torpedo launchers for crying out loud, as soon as it gets in range the entire area should be swimming in torpedoes.

I guess I'm just not happy the two dedicated submersible Experimentals of the game are beaten mass for mass by the Megalith...