Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

[SeraphimLeftNut]

The purpose of this thread is to understand what the mod is, so please correct me with facts.

The T2/T3 engie adjustment part is pretty minor in comparison to the creation of tech buildings, so I will not talk about it.

Focus on the T2 land factory for the rest of the thread.

As the game is played now, 800 mass will get you a T2 land factory. This gives you the following:

More build capacity
More health, harder to overrun a t2 factory than a t1 factory (takes two cruise missiles to kill)
Access to T2 land units and T2 engies

Build capacity of a T2 land factory is equivalent to 8 T1 engies which is 416 mass

Advantage of engies is that you can use them to switch between projects, fine tuning your economy.
Disadvantages are, congestion (only for noobs, base design should be part of your overall strategy), and low health

of the engies making them great targets for raids and bombers.

The mod version:

a T2 factory gives you the following:

More build capacity (basically the same as the T1 engie cost for build capacity)
More health
POTENTIAL ACCESS to T2 land units and T2 engies

The T2 land tech building gives you:
Activates all your T2 land factories (Maybe these should be called Tech 2 land activation facility, or tech 2
activation module)

The big change:

Your tech 2 land infrastructure no longer looks like a single T2 factory with lots of engies around it. It is now a
central activator with a network of T2 land factories spread over the map. Is this a gameplay improvement? Very difficult question that can only be answered by playing, but we can talk about the "spirit" of the game. Does this feature fit Supcom FA?

Positive:
The Activator can be destroyed, which would cause your T2 factories to only be able to produce T1 units. This is very much like taking out a t2 power generator to shut down air production or shields of the enemy. This gives technology the same character as mass and power resources in Supcom FA.

Making T2 factories that have more health but cost less mass should provide more gameplay possibilities and should make bases more diverse and perhaps more spread out. It is now conceivable constructing t2 factories right next to the battlefield.

Negative:
Diminishing the need for T1 engies makes bases harder to attack and makes less flexible bases a viable option. In
other words less flexible gameplay(low T1 engie strat) is rewarded by making the infrastructure more difficult to
kill.

A t2 factory can start producing T2 units behind the enemy base, because of a structure that is buried underneath
shields a long distance away from the actual battlefield. Once again this is because technology is taking on the
qualities of the power resource.

Unlike the power and mass resources the technology resource is not a continuous variable, it is an on/off switch. This is in sharp contrast to the rest of the game and is perhaps the biggest problem with this mod.


At this point I am very much torn about this mod. I really don't care about fixing the T1 engie congestion problem,
I don't think it is a problem at all. However, this mod brings obvious interesting features to the gameplay. At the
same time the on/off nature of the structure feels extremely ugly in contrast to everything else about this game,
supcom FA has no sharp edges, even when you lose a t2 pgen, your air factory can still produce aircraft, but at a
slower rate.

Do we want the overall structure of the T2 production machine to look like a series of self-sufficient points
or do we want a centralized core with unit producing tentacles spreading through the map?

I don't know.

[Rediska]

Im sorry about emotions, but my opinion is:
You played star/warcraft or C&C too hard in your childhood.
Because games only like that need some laboratories, activators, boosters and over9000 sh****s, f*****, ****, ****, *****, ****** and useless building.

Main Idea of Supreme Commander or spirit of the game, as you said, was to create a RTS without mess. Include no useless units/buildings and upgraids which you will use once per 100 games.

P.S. I dont mind about any mods while they are kept a mods and dont touch general game's mechanic.

[ColonelSheppard]

P.S. I dont mind about any mods while they are kept a mods and dont touch general game's mechanic.

ZoneControll *hust*

[Zavior]

About the "Big change" you speak about..
They are not making assisting useless in the engy mod, thus your points about not making t1 engies to assist whatever are somewhat moot. You will have to make the choice of having one factory with engies assisting, or multiple factories with no assistance. Each has its advantages. Even with this mod, I would not be surprised to see naval/land factories keep on being assisted with lots of engineers.. Old habits die hard

I, for one, would like to see multiple higher tech factories for producing large armies. If the enemy is able to build/tech a t2 factory behind your base, I dont think this mod actually has much effect. He will still need to bring the build power there in the first place to build the factory, even if it is cheaper to build the factory itself. I doubt this would turn out to be a problem.

As for the tech building itself.. I dont know, tech buildings dont feel very supcom-like, but then again I dont really mind having it in. Sniping it at a good moment could make your enemy lose the game, which sounds cool. I'd like the tech building to be volatile, because explosions. Of course you could have the "tech building" as an upgrade to factory itself, but that would require you to upgrade every factory invidually. In this case I'd prefer separate building.

[SeraphimLeftNut]

About the "Big change" you speak about..
They are not making assisting useless in the engy mod, thus your points about not making t1 engies to assist whatever are somewhat moot. You will have to make the choice of having one factory with engies assisting, or multiple factories with no assistance. Each has its advantages. Even with this mod, I would not be surprised to see naval/land factories keep on being assisted with lots of engineers.. Old habits die hard

Please see what I wrote. I never said assisting will be eliminated. I said that now you have two choices, the T2 factory option, which gives you less flexibility, but much more health, or the T1 engie assist option, which makes you flexible with your build capacity but makes you vulnerable to a couple t1 bombers.

So what we have is an addition to the gameplay, but this addition when chosen as a strategy actually diminishes the player's choices. (after it is chosen)
I hope that was clear.

I have a feeling that on many maps the high health strategy will be quite dominant, which will lead to a decrease in game dynamics.
I am not necessarily saying this is good or bad.

[uberge3k]

Exactly what I was going to write, after going through all of the threads on the topic and not seeing these questions adequately addressed anywhere.

So what we have is an addition to the gameplay, but this addition when chosen as a strategy actually diminishes the player's choices. (after it is chosen)
I hope that was clear.

I have a feeling that on many maps the high health strategy will be quite dominant, which will lead to a decrease in game dynamics.
I am not necessarily saying this is good or bad.

I would also like to dispute the assumption that engineers contribute to sim speed slowdown. For one, sim speed is almost never an issue in 1v1s, the portion of the game that these changes will affect the most.

Secondly, engineers assisting a factory have a minimal impact on the simulation. Is there an impact? Yes. Is the impact even noticeable when compared to the far larger impact of the simulation continuing to send commands to dead units? In a realistic situation, doubtfully. Should we be rebalancing the game to work around technical problems that are rarely an issue these days with most players having modern PCs? Absolutely not.

Lastly, pathfinding is only as much of an issue as one makes it. It is entirely possible to pack 700 t1 engineers around a single land factory, without blocking its exit, if one chose to do so. If one claims that this is "pointless micro", then I would assert that it is an incredibly personal opinion, and utilizing the same logic we could make a similar case for removing the micro of literally any other unit in the game.


Ultimately, the change gives me the same uneasy feeling that Supreme Commander 2 gave me. The ability to fine-tune your economic distribution via cheap and highly vulnerable engineers is something intrinsic to FA's gameplay, and changing this core concept is not something that should be taken lightly.

That said, I believe that at the end of the day, this change boils down to personal preference. In such cases, I strongly recommend following the age-old software adage:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[SeraphimLeftNut]

The ability to fine-tune your economic distribution via cheap and highly vulnerable engineers is something intrinsic to FA's gameplay, and changing this core concept is not something that should be taken lightly.
"

Yes. This is should be at the center of the discussion.

(I am sure the response to this in a lot of people's minds is that T1 engie spam is going to remain a viable strategy)

I will say that there will not be a single map where the engie spam and the T2 factory spam strategy will be equally effective.

[Zock]

The purpose of this thread is to understand what the mod is, so please correct me with facts.

The T2/T3 engie adjustment part is pretty minor in comparison to the creation of tech buildings, so I will not talk about it.

Focus on the T2 land factory for the rest of the thread.

As the game is played now, 800 mass will get you a T2 land factory. This gives you the following:

More build capacity
More health, harder to overrun a t2 factory than a t1 factory (takes two cruise missiles to kill)
Access to T2 land units and T2 engies

Build capacity of a T2 land factory is equivalent to 8 T1 engies which is 416 mass

Advantage of engies is that you can use them to switch between projects, fine tuning your economy.
Disadvantages are, congestion (only for noobs, base design should be part of your overall strategy), and low health

of the engies making them great targets for raids and bombers.

The mod version:

a T2 factory gives you the following:

More build capacity (basically the same as the T1 engie cost for build capacity)
More health
POTENTIAL ACCESS to T2 land units and T2 engies

The T2 land tech building gives you:
Activates all your T2 land factories (Maybe these should be called Tech 2 land activation facility, or tech 2
activation module)

The big change:

Your tech 2 land infrastructure no longer looks like a single T2 factory with lots of engies around it. It is now a
central activator with a network of T2 land factories spread over the map. Is this a gameplay improvement? Very difficult question that can only be answered by playing, but we can talk about the "spirit" of the game. Does this feature fit Supcom FA?

Positive:
The Activator can be destroyed, which would cause your T2 factories to only be able to produce T1 units. This is very much like taking out a t2 power generator to shut down air production or shields of the enemy. This gives technology the same character as mass and power resources in Supcom FA.

Making T2 factories that have more health but cost less mass should provide more gameplay possibilities and should make bases more diverse and perhaps more spread out. It is now conceivable constructing t2 factories right next to the battlefield.

Negative:
Diminishing the need for T1 engies makes bases harder to attack and makes less flexible bases a viable option. In
other words less flexible gameplay(low T1 engie strat) is rewarded by making the infrastructure more difficult to
kill.

A t2 factory can start producing T2 units behind the enemy base, because of a structure that is buried underneath
shields a long distance away from the actual battlefield. Once again this is because technology is taking on the
qualities of the power resource.

Unlike the power and mass resources the technology resource is not a continuous variable, it is an on/off switch. This is in sharp contrast to the rest of the game and is perhaps the biggest problem with this mod.


At this point I am very much torn about this mod. I really don't care about fixing the T1 engie congestion problem,
I don't think it is a problem at all. However, this mod brings obvious interesting features to the gameplay. At the
same time the on/off nature of the structure feels extremely ugly in contrast to everything else about this game,
supcom FA has no sharp edges, even when you lose a t2 pgen, your air factory can still produce aircraft, but at a
slower rate.

Do we want the overall structure of the T2 production machine to look like a series of self-sufficient points
or do we want a centralized core with unit producing tentacles spreading through the map?

I don't know.

Thanks for your opinion.

The one thing i want to comment is the on/off switch. Where is the huge difference to now? Once you make your single t2 factory, you switch your t2 to on. If you lose it, its off. Basicly the same as with the tech building.

The HP of the new factories is open to debate. If it is wanted that it is super easy killable (as engies now), it can get low HP. There are some additional things in this calculations though:
-Due to the fact your buildpower in factories will be more spread, it will already be harder to defend then one spot.
-You have an additional easy killable thing with the tech building

Im sorry about emotions, but my opinion is:
You played star/warcraft or C&C too hard in your childhood.
Because games only like that need some laboratories, activators, boosters and over9000 sh****s, f*****, ****, ****, *****, ****** and useless building.

Main Idea of Supreme Commander or spirit of the game, as you said, was to create a RTS without mess. Include no useless units/buildings and upgraids which you will use once per 100 games.

P.S. I dont mind about any mods while they are kept a mods and dont touch general game's mechanic.

You didn't understand the mod

I have a feeling that on many maps the high health strategy will be quite dominant, which will lead to a decrease in game dynamics.

I think we will almost always see a mix of both strategies. You will very rarly go only engies, or only facs. The relation of engys/facs in this mix will be made by your prefered playstyle.

If the high health of the factories is the only concern, as stated above, all values of the mod are free to debate. (you must notice that the hp is currently 80 hp LESS then a t1 factory)

Ultimately, the change gives me the same uneasy feeling that Supreme Commander 2 gave me. The ability to fine-tune your economic distribution via cheap and highly vulnerable engineers is something intrinsic to FA's gameplay, and changing this core concept is not something that should be taken lightly.

You can have cheap and highly vulnuerable factories instead. Or yes, t1, and also t2/t3 engies if you want flexibility.

Also, its not like you would snipe enemy buildpower in any second game. I know you will say you do, but under the last 100 replays of various good 1v1 players i've seen this done max. 5 times. Note also the point above that split buildpower is harder to defend then concentrated buildpower and that you have an additional vulnurable point with your tech building.

If T1 engies as only viable buildpower ressource is for you what is the difference between FA and supcom2 - well i dunno what to answer on that..

I will say that there will not be a single map where the engie spam and the T2 factory spam strategy will be equally effective.

I will say there will neither be a single map where either engy spam or only t2 factory spam will be better then the other. The main reason why factories will be more used is because it is much more comfortable to use them compared to 100 t1 engies, not efficiency reasons.

[ColonelSheppard]

I understand the purpose of the mod, and i played it, but i'm totally with uber, dont fix what is not broken

[pip]

Nobody commenting here seems to really understand what the mod exactly does, even if they played it once or twice (it's not enough to get a "gameplay feeling").

The mod is all about improving the gameplay, adding more strategies without removing anything that exists. Basically, it allows t2 and t3 gameplay to be more like t1 gameplay, allowing big armies of t2 and t3 units, and not just huge ass t1 armies with a few pew pew t2 and t3 here and there until an Experimental arrives. In Normal FA, you are stuck with your 10 t1 factories for the rest of the game until you decide it's time to reclaim them, because it's not efficient to upgrade them. How is it not broken???

If the mod does something, it's increasing the flexibility, not lessening it. You can still make a concentrated base and defend it with defenses or go more about spread production, all about offense and not defense. It makes the game more like Total Annihilation. You can also still build a lot of t1 engies, they are still super useful, you can also use them to boost production, it still works and it is still as flexible as you want it to be because nobody forces you not to build engineers. Except that now, you can also build higher tier ones more efficiently.

It increases the scale of the game because it allows huge t2 and t3 fights, it makes it much more epic and macro orientated. It also fixes the huge problem of overcharging t2 units with your ACU because when you have 3 times the usual normal of t2 or t3 units, your ACU cannot overcharge everything and fight in everyplace (he still might get more vet from higher tier units though, again, more epic), but it will make a big difference where he is because he can repel big t2 attacks better than anything at tier 2. I can see lot of strategies here.

Before judging the mod, people should actually play it several times or at least watch a few replays of someone who knows how to play it to see how the gameplay is changed, and if what they see is more like Starcraft of other bullshit like this.