Scathis OP on smallish team maps

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Scathis OP on smallish team maps

Postby noms » 26 Nov 2012, 06:07

(updated 2 December)

Scathis:

cost: 63k mass, 780k energy, 1580 dps, range 330

3 x T3 arty:

cost 261-274k mass, 2616-2745k energy, ~1380-1800 dps, range 700-900 [cybran-aeon]

On a small map like isis this weapon is effectively an inexpensive "game ender". It can sit at the outer edge of one's base heavily defended by overlapping t2 and t3 shields, T4 bots, T3 PD etc. On these maps it is more effective than 3 x T3 arty and is 75% cheaper mass wise. It does 3000 damage every 1.9 seconds (1580 splash dps) and can destroy a heavily shielded base very quickly. In previous versions of FA this was Cybran's game ender and it used to cost 300k mass, but in FAF it was given a massive cost reduction (perhaps too massive?) to encourage use.

At present the only way to deal with it is to take it out before it is finished. In an evenly matched game, this may involve making the "Scathis equivalent" mass of T4 bots (ie. two to three) and charging in to kill the opponents defence and their scathis before it is finished (or trying snipe with TML or T3 bombers).

The defending scathis side has an advantage if the opposition attacks (eg. with additional T4 bots) as they will heavily shield the scathis and place their T3/T4 units and defensive turrets at the front line under the shields.

Since it is so cheap it can be built within 2-3 minutes with late game combined eco.


Screenshot showing Scathis range on Fields of Isis

http://www.imagebam.com/image/56a28d223415299

It can easily reach 80% of the enemy base.

You can also see the range of a mobile T3 arty from the other side of the central ridge. It can't counter the scathis.


Replay showing Scathis firing power


Here is a replay showing how much damage it can do to a shielded base. Fast forward to 4 minutes to see the scathis firing.

After 5 mins I added several T3 sera shields (21k hp) but scathis still broke through.

458764-noms_scathis_demo.fafreplay
(11.69 KiB) Downloaded 51 times


Balance Change

Current: range 330, mass 63k, energy 780k, max speed 1, turn rate 40, dps 1580

Proposed: range 1700-1800, mass 250k, energy 5000k, max speed 2.5, turn rate 75, dps unchanged

Compared to:

Salvation: range 1800, mass 270k, energy 5400k, dps 2555
Mavor: range 4000, mass 300k, energy 6000k, dps 1500


T4 Arty Range

I think the mavor should remain unique, capable of hitting targets on 81x81 maps.

This shows Mavor range (4000) vs Salvation range (1800) on a 81x81:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/914e9f223547711

Scathis is best compared to a Salvation which is useful on a 40x40:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/3e8f1b223547702


Given it is a mobile unit it needs to be able to move within range of anything on the 40x40 maps, which is why I think the 1700-1800 range with mass cost of 250k is a good proposal. If facing a land threat at the front lines it can be moved, at reasonable speed, towards the back of the base and then back out again. This demonstrates good faction diversity.

If it is really inaccurate at longer ranges, perhaps firing randomness can be adjusted. Speed should be buffed to 2.5+ to make it practical to move around (currently speed 1).

I would like to see the Scathis being useful as a game ender on 20x20 to 40x40 maps and uneconomical to build on a smaller map. Perhaps if the enemy feeds you 100k mass you can build one, otherwise you are better off making 3 Disruptors on a small map.

Thanks for reading
Last edited by noms on 02 Dec 2012, 04:47, edited 49 times in total.
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby ColonelSheppard » 26 Nov 2012, 07:50

20 ASF should be enough (-->scout)
(8k mass + lets say 1 k got scouts :mrgreen: )

if you are not able to overrun your enemy with..

let's say 2 chickenbots and 10 mobile shields in the time he's building the scatis
esspecially on "small maps" then yeah, then he deserves the win
(you could also build some nukes or something)

and mavor has and the other artys have much more range, so they are more expensive

stop crying about scatis and Soulripper, better learn to counter them by souting
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Softly » 26 Nov 2012, 10:51

The scathis range does seem pretty minimal tbh so I wouldn't call it op. If someone would suggest increasing e cost of soul ripper (not by double though XD) here that would be good:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2424#p23489
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Lyr » 26 Nov 2012, 11:46

Flak murders Soul Rippers. If you can't maintain ASF dominance, or need to put extra pain on it, T2 flak will help.

Cybran's experimentals are all about being relatively inexpensive.
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Stin » 26 Nov 2012, 12:13

noms wrote:Scathis: (cost: 63k mass, 780k energy)


At present the only way to deal with this is to take the scathis out before it is finished. In an hypothetical evenly matched game, this requires making equivalent mass of T4 bots (ie. two to three) and charging in to kill the opponents defence and their scathis before it is finished. Even if they got through, bombers wouldn't be a good option as they could just reclaim the scathis wreck plus your bombers. multiple TMLs are another option...




How many ASF do you need to take out a soulripper that is getting veterency by demolishing your base?


Scathis - In your hypothetical evenly matched game why would you need to make the 2-3 T4 bots? If it was truly evenly matched you would already have them built. :)
Also if you are more worried about them reclaiming the mass of a few bombers, than the massively innacurate artillery that only hits the same place twice in 30,000 shots, then you should perhaps rethink your priorities.

Soul Ripper - If a SR is getting veterency from your base, then its too late and by this time they could beat you with almost anything.

Both of these take a relatively long time to build, if you cannot see them coming and prepare adequetly from them, then the problem is your skill.
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby ColonelSheppard » 26 Nov 2012, 14:24

Lyr wrote:Flak murders Soul Rippers.


uuh really? maybe im wrong here but im pretty sure that flak is quite ineffective against soulrippers (compared to SAM)

http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,UAB2304

but maybe im wrong here
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Softly » 26 Nov 2012, 14:48

Yes but thats only because stationary aeon flak appears to shoot peanuts at the enemy.

http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,UAL0205
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Kryo » 26 Nov 2012, 15:12

DilliDalli wrote:Yes but thats only because stationary aeon flak appears to shoot peanuts at the enemy.

http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,UAL0205


hm is that correct? or a mistake in the DB? I never realized that Aeon stationary Flak is so weak compared to the other factions.
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Lyr » 26 Nov 2012, 15:16

Well UEF flak ( I do all measurements in UEF) you get 212(.2) Sky Boxers for a Soul Ripper, which deals 30600DPS.

I double checked to make sure I wasn't reading the HP field this time :lol:

34000/160x144 = 30600dps. So pretty effective for their cost, plus lots of flak isn't a bad investment versus a player who has probably invested in air. Flak isn't as good as ASF, but it will do in a pinch.
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Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

Postby Kryo » 26 Nov 2012, 18:28

Lyr wrote:Well UEF flak ( I do all measurements in UEF) you get 212(.2) Sky Boxers for a Soul Ripper, which deals 30600DPS.

I double checked to make sure I wasn't reading the HP field this time :lol:

34000/160x144 = 30600dps. So pretty effective for their cost, plus lots of flak isn't a bad investment versus a player who has probably invested in air. Flak isn't as good as ASF, but it will do in a pinch.


flak is less mobile than a air unit. If you play Isis and your base is very close together, you are right, but on bigger maps its not that easy.
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