Instructive turtle games to watch

Talk about general things concerning Forged Alliance Forever.

Moderators: FtXCommando, Ze Dogfather

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby codepants » 31 Jul 2020, 19:46

FtXCommando wrote:way better to build t2 arty than ravagers in a firebase war


Only if you want the range. Ravagers cost only 5% more mass but have nearly 3x the dps. They're much more accurate and have a higher rof if you do need to target a specific building or something that moves.
codepants
Priest
 
Posts: 310
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 17:44
Has liked: 14 times
Been liked: 54 times
FAF User Name: codepants

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby FtXCommando » 31 Jul 2020, 20:20

enemy makes t3 mobile arty and now ur ravagers are all wasted mass
Are you upset? Are you happy? Are you a FAF Player? Come to the PC Discord and share your thoughts and build the community!

https://discord.gg/Y2dGU8X
User avatar
FtXCommando
Councillor - Players
 
Posts: 1236
Joined: 09 Jan 2017, 18:44
Has liked: 234 times
Been liked: 583 times
FAF User Name: FtXCommando

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby Captcha-Lover » 31 Jul 2020, 20:51

A T3 builder can't make T3 arty. Maybe that's why they are so useful?
Captcha-Lover
Crusader
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 18:39
Has liked: 11 times
Been liked: 7 times
FAF User Name: Captchagachi

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby codepants » 01 Aug 2020, 03:49

FtXCommando wrote:enemy makes t3 mobile arty and now ur ravagers are all wasted mass


I'm not going to argue with you about a better way to turtle (since we agree turtling is almost always a bad idea, I assume), but I don't really find your offhanded one-liners very helpful. It kinda feels like you want to argue more than you want to learn and contribute.
codepants
Priest
 
Posts: 310
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 17:44
Has liked: 14 times
Been liked: 54 times
FAF User Name: codepants

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby knacK » 01 Aug 2020, 12:12

armacham01 wrote:It sounds like you're not really concerned with fighting a "turtle" per se, you want to know how to fight an enemy with a strong established position. Good players CAN get to that point in games (although it's rare, usually the game ends before that). They don't actually get to that point by turtling up. They fight aggressively for the entire map. But sometimes a game lasts long enough that people actually make things like T3 heavy artillery.

If you're interested in seeing what people do for/against bases like that, you can watch dual gap games. Basically any game that lasts more than 60 minutes should have a LOT of shields, heavy artillery, etc. Same story for twin rivers, seton's, isis, canis, and lots of other team maps. if the game goes on long enough, it's likely people are making big toys and heavily-shielded bases.

If you want to know what people "should" do, look for high-rated dual gap games. I couldn't find any recent ones but here is a longer game on that map #11873875

Here are some seton's games that go long, you might find base-breaking tactics here.
#11824838
#11810555
#11795246

Here are some twin rivers 1v1s that go long
#12232765
#12173640

If you search Gyle casts for "epic" team games or "arty fest" you should find some games with these situations. Not sure how helpful it will be to watch his videos, for what you want (specific details about what you should do).
You are right, I wanna know how to play vs a strong established firebase. Thank you, I will take a look at those twin river games.
knacK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 30 Mar 2019, 10:42
Has liked: 0 time
Been liked: 0 time
FAF User Name: kn4cK

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby knacK » 01 Aug 2020, 12:23

codepants wrote:The one thing I think most people miss is not coordinating their mmls. Have them stop firing (red button in the lower left), wait 8 seconds, then tell them to fire so they all fire at once. Overwhelming TMD is much, much easier this way. (unless it's AEON tmd. Then ignore this) (but most people who are good enough to play aeon are good enough not to turtle)

Most turtling begins at t2 so assuming all else equal, you kick out your first mobile missile launcher just before your opponent finishes his first t2 pd (mmls are slightly cheaper than t2 pds). At this point the turtler will start making tmd. Again, mmls are slightly cheaper than tmd, so you should have two mml. If he goes shield, again, mmls are cheaper so you should have three before he can get a shield up. At this point you need only make one mml per building he makes. If he spams TMD, he is not advancing. Your MMLs are merely keeping him in place while you get map control elsewhere. The point is not to beat the base, just to have them put much more mass into it than they need to. You can break turtles with mml since one mmls is cheaper than one TMD, but your profit margin (the amount of mass you spend less than your opponent) is very small. Sometimes it's necessary to keep them from pd creeping you, but in general, making mmls is only a distraction.

If your opponent is smart he will make his own mml, forcing you to make a shield. You might have to micro your mmls in this case, but most turtlers aren't that good (usually by the time someone can turtle well, they know doing other things works better).

Considering from the start again, say your opponent went t2 on their ACU and you went gun. T2 is slightly cheaper than gun, so he will finish first, but t2 + t2 pd is more expensive than gun, so you can approach and start shooting the pd before it finishes (all else equal). You can then push your opponent back until he collects some units, and you just got map control. Having some units with you and having OC helps too.

Anyway, the turtling phase shouldn't get much beyond t2 if your opponent is really focusing it. If you let them build a ravager, for instance, then you already lost (or are really ignoring them and really winning everywhere else on the map. Or it's a team game and your team sucks).

I recently played a turtler but the replay is literally just me spamming mmls while ecoing and him making pd and ecoing slightly less. It was a multiplayer game so there was nowhere else for me to go and nothing else for me to do. It was really lame. The smart thing he did when his base started buckling was reclaim it all.
That is useful to me! My next question would have been, what would you do if your opponent managed to build a few ravagers. But that kind of got answered already. So I guess you just pump out t3 arty. Although depending on the exact firebase the opponent has, it might sometimes also be useful to go heavy t3 air or build a megalith or a nuke or something like that? That, I will figure out after some trial and error i guess. I feel like I have some base knowledge now that I can build on/work with.
knacK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 30 Mar 2019, 10:42
Has liked: 0 time
Been liked: 0 time
FAF User Name: kn4cK

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby codepants » 10 Aug 2020, 23:00

Right, Ravagers are countered by t3 mobile arty. However, it is rare for games to get to that point; if they do, you should have broken the turtle by then. Though you are correct: if for some reason the turtle is still present, and you are unable to go around it, t3 air (which could hopefully go around it...) or a nuke would all be fine options. Ravagers outrange megaliths. T2 arty would probably be fine too since they cost a little less.

Honestly though, if another player is ravager creeping into your base, they have been winning for a while, they are just slow to actualize it. When you watch the reply, look much, much earlier. How did they get that close to you? How did they get that much more mass? I'd argue the best counter to a turtle is never letting it happen.
codepants
Priest
 
Posts: 310
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 17:44
Has liked: 14 times
Been liked: 54 times
FAF User Name: codepants

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby biass » 11 Aug 2020, 07:24

Couple of dudes have already eluded to it but all of these niche suggestions are entirely irrelevant because choosing to ‘break a turtle’ already shows a critical failure in your decision making process.

You say you know the fundamentals but you only know the unit ranges, you already know to make the unit that outranges the other unit, who cares.

Fundamentally however:
The enemy is choosing to invest all of his resources into denying you a certain area.
The more range, the more area denied. That is why t2 arty is the king in fire base war codepants, dps is less relevant.

The investment in the area is typically so great that choosing to invest Into taking said area is a terrible option. The only time that changes is if your opponent is using that area to complete a win condition, or if you’re on some map where the area has a huge amount of mexes in it. You’re playing ladder so that doesn’t happen. You wouldn’t use a nuke to take a t1 mex, so why make a nukes worth of mass in mml to take one here?

Investing so many resources into holding a couple of mexes and otherwise flat dirt, is also a bad play. The enemy player is relying on you to generate the value for him, by making huge sacrifices to attempt to take the area. That’s why everyone says to “just go around it” before all this strange talk of mml gimmicks and range calculations. A pd that never shoots is a waste of mass. A competent player isn’t going to make a line of turrets and wait for you to win, he’s going to have t2 mml that can shoot back at you and they’re going to be under shields, he is going to have t2 arty that can compete with t3 mobile, he’s going to have walls, he is going to have AA, etc.

Investing in holding an area implies that an enemy cannot keep up with you if you choose to spend the equivalent mass to attack somewhere else on the map. Not only does his investment become a waste, but you gain insane value out of gaining map control and doing damage. this should be your first choice when you see an enemy start to pour mass into holding an area.

The point of gaining map control is to convert that advantage into an eco lead while an enemy attempts to take it back, so that you have more mass when the control becomes even again. PDS cannot move, so they cannot reclaim map control, and allow you to snowball your eco lead into a state where you can kill with whatever you choose to build. It’s hard to put on the brakes when you’re 1k rated and that is why turtle players are allowed to stay relevant in that rating range. But if you take map control and out eco a turtle player; he investing 100% of his mass into an area will never be enough to hold it against your choice of attack, and you’ll win every time.

Hope that explains a few things because these random trainer dude hours always got me buggin bro
Map thread: https://bit.ly/2PBsa5H

Petricpwnz wrote:biass on his campaign to cleanse and remake every single map of FAF because he is an untolerating reincarnation of mapping hitler
User avatar
biass
Contributor
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: 03 Dec 2015, 07:54
Has liked: 598 times
Been liked: 662 times
FAF User Name: biass

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby Captcha-Lover » 15 Aug 2020, 15:21

Good typing biass. Its really a shame you never managed to click yourself out of the 1500 range.
Captcha-Lover
Crusader
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 18:39
Has liked: 11 times
Been liked: 7 times
FAF User Name: Captchagachi

Re: Instructive turtle games to watch

Postby TheKoopa » 15 Aug 2020, 17:48

Lmao
Feather: I am usually pretty good in judging people's abilities, intelligence and motives

Evildrew: Just because I didnt choose you for my team last year doesnt give you the right to be all bitchy and negative about my proposal
User avatar
TheKoopa
Contributor
 
Posts: 1158
Joined: 04 Sep 2013, 18:04
Location: New York
Has liked: 172 times
Been liked: 225 times
FAF User Name: Gently-

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest