Link to video:
Table of contents:
0:04:30:15
Q. When will we see Supcom 3?
GPG sold Supcom to Square Enix due to economic crisis
GPG couldnt get contracts, was in bad shape
They could sell Supcom because they could just make another spiritual successor
Chris doesnt have IP - if Square gave him a call he would have a chat
Square probably wont call cos aren't focused on RTS
0:06:47:17
Q. What about selling to someone who is?
Publishers buy IP without selling it
There's heaps of stuff that will never see light of day
0:07:48:11
Q. Did sale of Supcom keep gpg running?
Yes they sold Dungeon Siege as well
First you get a loan
Then you sell assets to pay back the loan
Then bank payment goes down
0:08:33:20
Q. What else did you try?
Part of the Square deal was to co-make Supcom2
Issue with Supcom2 was designed to fit on low memory for xbox
People don't give them a break about Supcom2 compromises
There were reasons why they did it
Gaming business is tough
It's easy if you make money on your first game, like Valve
GPG sold 1 million Dungeon Siege which broke even, which puts them behind for game 2 because they had full staff from day 1
Nearly better to disband after game 1
If you don't have a hit game you are in trouble
Indie games are good because you have a tiny team at the end, with low expectations
We could do a talk on economics of game company
Chris is semi retired from gaming - its a hobby now
0:12:46:12
Q. Were supcom 2 xbox controls bad?
Goldeneye on N64 was getting ok console controls.
Halo smashed it. Halo had cheat auto-aim. Got better since then.
Chris sees Supcom2 as the "Goldeneye" of console RTS - the first step.
The controls were not a mouse - it had a brush to select units.
It was ok but you couldn't compete vs PC
Halo Wars was ok
Everyone copies each other in games
Chris has been called an "influential game designer" eg strategic zoom
0:16:44:05
... On Strategic zoom
Some games dont have strat zoom cos its a design decision, for some they dont have the skills
Supcom 1.0 had strategic zoom designed in from the start in 2002
It was important that you zoomed into the cursor, not the centre
Every other app zoomed to centre
It was small visionary to consider zoom to cursor, before anything was built
There's also some math to not zoom off the map
Lots of art apps zoomed to centre
When zoom out it zooms out along same path as in, it has to be the same
In IGSE (intergalactic space empires) you can zoom from unit, out to universe, back to unit - end up in the same place
0:22:33:24
If you wanna build RTS then watch this and the following interviews
The dirty secrets of RTS design
What is a dirty secret? Click bait
Chris wants to talk RTS design
Chris built a few games like his Baseball games, applied a lot from that to TA
Balls travelled in 3D but were rendered in isometric 2D (it was a graphic, just at the right size and place)
They had air resistance
After Baseball Chris worked with Ron Gilbert (who made TA, Monkey Island). Ron comes up a few times.
Chris wanted to beat C&C which had pre rendered flat images with flat firing
In close range flat firing is ok, but with 3d terrain and long range arty, need curve = its the same as baseball
When you simulate a projectile you just add a speed vector each tick and add drag for remove air resistance
To aim the bullet, you know the destination position and muzzle position, you can math out the angle
In WW2 the military had books to work out what what angle to use
The Germans fired their Big Bertha and the books were wrong because it fired so high it didnt account for the atmosphere thinning at different altitudes, they made some math to account for elevation differences
In TA they similfied a bit
The dirty secret is the projectile does its thing
Today they call simulation "emergent behavior"
In TA you can miss because they move. In C&C that never happened - it was game logic not sim
That works when its small scale, it doesn't work on huge scale (map-crossing-arty)
TA was visionary because it was simulated, plus 3D Graphics
Everyone thought 3D graphics would look bad
TA Kbots were named after the Kbot modeller Kevin
Chris wanted a movie about TA with the camera scrolling up huge mech passing the name "Peewee"
Hard to have original ideas
TA was innovative!
- Shift click interface, plan your base before you have the resources to build it.
- Metal & Energy model, you didnt need cash upfront, you could crash Eco
In WW2, Hitler ran too many projects at once, Hitler was a noob at WW2
0:38:36:01
Q. You asked why we are still playing FA. The answers were strategic zoom, realistic games, complexity, economy, not too clicky, modability.
0:40:05:00
Q. Why did you add expensive modability?
It started in the baseball game. They weren't licensed and couldn't bake in real Baseball star names and stat's, so instead they allowed you to make a mod because they knew you would add in real player details.
In TA, it was convenient in dev to repeat the data driven system like the baseball game, because Chris didn't know how many units or factions he wanted.
Ron had the idea to release new units periodically, but it was too hard.
Maps have to be moddable because you can't store them all in memory.
Actually GPG didn't release a map editor, HazardX and OzoneX released ones.
Chris doesn't even like baseball.
The baseball game drove the TA design - moddable, physics based projectiles.
Hard to retrofit modding
Modding is not that hard to add, but people like it
Dungeon Siege was moddable but that failed because the game takes 60 hours to play. You had to replace everything to make it worth playing. One guy Brian did that so GPG hired him.
RTS is better for modding because you will see the mod within a short time.
Not every game should be moddable. It wouldn't make sense for Uncharted.
RTS is sandbox.
0:46:53:18
Q. Did you think about making other RTS that aren't supcom?
There was a secret Japanese zombie horror RTS game prototype that was great but fell through. (Also that seems ahead of its time as that is a popular concept now)
Demigod was MOBA (Also seems ahead of its time given what happened)
Kings and Castles was self financed and based on the engine - but then paid gig of Age of Empires Online came up
0:48:33:00
Q. What happened with Kings and Castles?
Chris mega screwed up and feels like a fallen man
He planned on coming back (Age of Empires got cancelled)
He didnt have the money to keep financing it
Chris failed by not messaging that "we are following the law" ?????????
Millions were buying Supcom and Dungeon Siege. 22k people were interested in Kings and Castles - it wasn't economically viable
Chris feels like crap because he never explained it to people
Chris feels like people don't want to hear the real story about payroll issues etc, and Chris was dispirited
0:51:15:20
Q. Things were looking good for a while, how did GPG fall apart?
Bottom line is I wasn't a successful business man
Was a good game designer
Needed a business guy but didnt quite have the trust to form the partnership
Steam was becoming big and PC retail was dying - publishers were chasing console, they had 100s of millions
EA had the Supcom contract and cancelled after a few months because PC was inconsequential. After that console went down and the PC rose. Origin and Steam came. Gabe Newell (Steam founder) is the most successful video game guy ever, worth zillions, private company. Now EA hand Steam money
EA cancelled Supcom because they didnt want to be in PC gaming
THQ (Toy Head Quarters) were the next publisher but were family orientated
Chris found THQ because lots of people would just approach Chris at trade shows
My observation: Chris could afford to sell Supcom because Chris IS an RTS brand
RTS lost popularity. PC gaming was polarizing - you need a huge game or tiny
There was a dead zone if you had certain number of employees with benefits - it was hard
GPG ended because Chris struggled to find publishing deals, perhaps due to Chris's loose cannon style
Chris's Team was solid
Perhaps publishers were Wall St suit conservative and Chris ... isn't
The PR team would be like "are you ready for this guy?"
Pewdiepie is way crazier than Chris
Chris's style was not good for GPG
What it comes down to is GPG failed because they couldn't get new publishing deals
Chris wouldn't change anything - play the game your way
1:02:25:06
GPG didnt wind down because of Supcom 2 - that game sold as well as Supcom 1
They did screw up something on SC2 but it was ok
Some people prefer SC2, flow field pathfinding is the bomb
<Some discussion if we can still say "the bomb">
SC2 had cool visuals like debris falling through map holes
SC2 had Noah unit cannon which was named Chris's son and was originally suggested for TA by the Ron.
1:04:44:10
Real shout out to the team
Without the team you have nothing and Chris had a great team
1:06:29:07
Ron worked at LucasArts, made Maniac Mansion, then made Humongous Entertainment which made TA - they made the brand Cavedog because they were going to sell
Chris came up with Cavedog and Frozen Yak - with explanation what the video was going to be like. They flipped a coin to pick Cavedog. 24 hours later it was done with logo and music
Needed a new brand to separate from Humongous kids brand
Ron was a major part of TA - Chris was Lead Design not an owner. Chris made GPG to own his own work.
Humongous ended up going broke, children's software sales were going down
1:11:32:00
<discussion on merits of editing out the previous section>
1:12:15:02
GPG would have lasted more if publishing model was different
Trip Hawkins started EA and set the games industry model based off music industry
Then all publishers copied EA
Good side: With games were distributed there was a bio of the dev team
Bad side: The issue is "electronic artists" were paid the same way as musicians - you get a cut of profit but first you have to pay back the recoup - ALL of the costs - from YOUR fraction of the profit. I.e the entire cost of the game including production and marketing, is removed from your cut until it is paid back. Then you get paid back. A game like supcom costs $25 million therefore it takes a very long time before you start making money. The publisher makes money much quicker tho.
In earlier days it was ok because the marketing costs were low at first
Unclear exactly on this: Supcom got $30mil gross. It cost $6m to make + $12m additional expenses
Chris's cut paid for basically the entire game production. There wasn't any extra to be profit for him.
The publishers deduct a lot from Chris's cut including freight of returning over-orders
Chris had to pay a bunch because someone decided to send too many copies to someone else
At the end of the day they sold a million units and got zero - but they financed making a good game - with blood sweat and tears - 12 hrs 7 days for 4 years
Publishers are tricky and were inescapable in the 90s.
Chris is done.
Won't make games unless from his own bank account.
Chris doesn't want to do the publishing thing, doesn't want to partner.
Chris is too old.
<Chris threatening to shoot me over a coffee>
It would be hard to get a publisher to look at you because people are willing to work ... (like a slave?)
You need to be young to make games for young people.
Chris is too old.
Chris's design sensibilities are going to be for a smaller and smaller group.
Chris is 53. A small amount of people will love his new specialized project.
Publishers wont want to spend millions or 100ks
Publishers want to invest huge into something that will be a fortnite
Publishers chase trends
1:24:14:01
Q. So you want want to make another Supcom?
Yes if they have $25m, reasonable timeframe and no handicap qualifiers
Chris is interested in IGSE because it's just for his audience
The way it is structured there is no publisher to take the $$
"I'm not done with games, I'm done with the gaming industry, the way the operate[d]"
Chris thinks he can't design games for 20 year olds any more because his son disagrees about designs. They like different things
1:26:42:05
Q. Publishers will still be interested in your low budget games because one of them will break out
Yes - but the publishers are young too now, Chris is too old
Old game people turn into executive publishers
Publishers won't hire old people as dev/design side
Chris is happy to make his game his way
1:28:34:08
Q. Some publishers go for specialized games eg (Hearts of Iron) and older gamers are a market now
Mike is super handsome and Chris is alright
Chris would make Supcom3 if he could license back his engine from Square
Square are welcome to call Chris on that one, at the least Chris could creatively guide (tm) the team
Making Supcom3 is not a creative exercise, it's just listening. Half the design is making community suggested improvements
You don't redesign a Porsche from scratch. You just add bits
If I made TA2 I would damn near make TA1 in HD with problems fixed then add factions, zoom, but not much
1:31:42:10
Q. Do we want the same engine for SC3? Don't we want a new one?
That would cost $25m (so you can see here Chris was suggesting we could make another Supcom without engine improvements just better content)
You need a team which takes ages, lots of people will leave, it takes years. With an existing engine this is less of a factor.
To build an engine from scratch you will need a team of top notch engineers who are hard to find
Q. You dont need top notch dev, just beat 13 year old FA. Use engine. No determinism. Client/Server model. Today's low latency networks. We will make a low budget game - who is the publisher?
What? Oh maybe we dont need 25m i like your attitude.
"If we are going to build this thing, lets figure it out!"
Let's build a tree fort.
Chris is mates with Paradox CEO Fred
We shouldn't make it SC3 because it's so hard to get back IP
We could use Kanoogi tech
Careful of engine costs - read the fineprint
The hardest parts are map, units, pathfinding, physics, AI, targeting, intel model
Do you use future tech as it will be? thought to be? want to be?
1:40:16:09
We should have a series of these videos where we walk through components?
We can steal any of these ideas - they are public domain.
Chris is happy to teach the next gen of designers/engineers/architects.
Chris nearly taught Computer Science at a uni
1:41:47:17
Chris is a fan of webtech and cloudtech
Chris is leading a team of cloud architects, wanted to take a break from gaming to move gaming into passion.
Covid was a factor, then riots. chris is waiting for monster trucks
Chris likes clouds a lot
ISGE is crash-resistant due to cloud which is great even though Chris uses a mac
ISGE also uses cool progressive loading
Chris thinks we have SC3 in a browser in 5 years
WebGL1 is great but 2 is even better with things like instancing. On the other hand 2 is not on all browsers
If you want to plan for the 5 year future where SC3 runs in a browser, forget Unity and upskill that stack.
Unity is not the way to go cos its general purpose and slow (I argue against this)
After C# issues you run into GC issues
Mike has a VR game on Steam, buy it even though it's no good - Bloodstream. If you want to buy Bloodstream please get in touch.
Mike ran out of budget - publishers
Web tech is coming along with Wasm where javascript is faster
It's not janky
1:50:19:16
Q. For a publisher we can be more attractive without a new engine, let's use out of the box stuff for lower cost, won't be as good, will be better than FA, uses more hardware, quality of life enhancements like reconnect, because budget is low might be more appealing. There is a huge gap in the market.
Mike has can-do attitude like Chris
You can't do it on your own but you can crawl on your own
It will take ages to figure it all out but Chris is willing to mentor a bit to cut the time down (for free)
Chris will try and answer questions and help would-be RTS designers
1:53:59:15
Q. That sounds amazing but lets get a publisher and get $ and you do it properly
Publishers don't care
Normally Chris could find opportunities to discuss this with people in the industry - but Covid shut that down
This year sucks but if we are serious, it is possible
To prepare you need to make a script, game design document, feature set
Make a design document big enough to whack someone with but wait until the CEO is in town before before issuing deadlines
You design document does not have to be complete but has to be good
You need a qualified experienced team, they don't want to pay you to learn
Chris didn't mean to crush my dreams, it was an accident
You need project plan, cost estimates, milestones, dates
Publishers want to hear it will take 2 years
Dirty secret - people who aren't Chris do this - sign the publisher up for a smaller deal and when you need more money they don't really have a choice - they are too far in
Chris never signed a contract knowing it wouldn't work out. In the later years they always delivered. In the earlier days they accidently misquoted - games are hard.
2:02:23:24
Q. What happened at Wargaming?
Chris was GM and Creative Directory of the studio (and the President?) but basically the manager.
Chris hired 20 year old Eric Williamson to be the designer of the secret game they were working on. We can't talk about what the game was but it was pretty darn cool. Eric moved on to invent Fortnite.
Chris sold GPG to Wargaming and part of the deal was the Chris moved with it (as GM)
After 3 years Chris left WG because wanted to code instead of managing - cloud architecture role is rewarding
2:05:54:24
We will do another video
FYI I have offered 5x I have offered to Chris to plug ISGE on FAF and he keeps saying he isn't ready.
