Is Trueskill the right choice for ladder?

[harzer99]

A couple of days ago seven was ranting in a voice call about higher level ladder being very inactive and him having issues to find games even in 1.5k rating due to US time zone. He was proposing a system rather like Starcraft that involves decent grinding to get high up and also needs a lot of grinding to stay on top. In this system most 2k+ ladder players wouldn't be on the top of the leader board anymore due to not actively playing. His point was that it is also really hard to improve if you don't have strong(er) players to play against. So by not playing actively the currently top rated players have this factor that keeps competition from reaching their level fast. Of course when not playing rust becomes an issue but not having new people improve because of lack of possible ladder matches is a significant counteracting factor to maintain you as the strongest player. So the goal is to revive ladder especially in the higher rating ranges. A grinding based system with decay or occasional soft reset is forcing you to keep playing if you want to maintain a high league. So this would at least get people to play more actively who want to see their name very high up on the leader board. Downside is that the league would not tell the skill level of the player as accurately as Trueskill but I believe that is a good sacrifice to make for higher ladder activity. Trueskill is very useful for making balanced games but how necessary is that for competitive ladder?
I think there is a reason why most games use a league system with a decay mechanic. Forcing people to play, to a certain degree, works really well, at least for AAA titles (loot grinds, league grinds etc.).

On how to implement a system like this I was first thinking about implementing a decay on the Trueskill rating after a while of in activeness. But came to the conclusion that it would only cause shifting in the rating distribution of all players. Basically a deflation of rating. Which would mess up the league brackets over time.
I think ditching Trueskill for ladder would be the best option and just copy a system from another game.

I know that forcing people to play via grinding is against the spirit of FAF cause that is stuff evil publisher like EA do. And there is a chance active ladder players would leave for that reason. So tell me what you think

[ConditionZero]

There is allot of truth to your statement. And not just to 'force' players to play, but to decrease match making time. I hadn't played in three years and my rating is still moderate, but my skill is NOT what it used to be. So in truth my rating is over inflated.

A soft reset would be very useful.

There is a reason so many successful games do it

[FtXCommando]

Most games have blackboxed rating/custom mmr hidden from players that is utilized to balance games while a structure built upon that rating (leagues/divisions) is shown off to the general user.

The end logic doesn’t make sense to me.

BH and Petric do not play ladder now because nothing to prove and it isn’t interesting.

You reset their rating, now they suddenly will play? No, they will just maybe rarely play a game and still win many of the tournaments. So what has happened? Have you suddenly improved because the old 1500s you were facing are now 1800? This logic of reset in order to climb properly only holds true if there is some huge gap at some rating level like 1500-1800 where everyone is afk so it is impossible to climb from the active 1300-1500 level to active 1800+ level. This is not what exists on FAF.

For the rest of your post, a league system is already being planned for precisely these reasons.

The only reason I would consider a reset is to see if it would address the left skew in the FAF trueskill distribution. Will probably talk with Brutus and Sheeo about it during our next council call to see if a test can be done to see if it would assist in correcting the skew.

[harzer99]

I want to change the blackbox:
To a system in which you can boost your rating/league by playing more. In trueskill you aren't able to increase your rating by just playing a lot (and not improving). Many other games use a rating system that is far more rudimentary than trueskill. They converge a lot slower to the true rating. They do this by generating more rating for winning than loosing. So average rating is diverging over time. This gets usually fixed by resets so that the brackets can stay in the rating range.
Nice thing for players is that after every reset they will keep increasing for quite a while after the reset. Despite not winning that many games anymore. This is the grinding aspect that makes them play more games every season.
It is a system that requires maintenance and gives the possibility to boost a player into a higher bracket just by grinding ladder. And if you reward that with badges or similar I think a decent amount of the player base would do that.
Your trueskill rating won't increase if you just play more. Only if you improve.

[BlackYps]

Why do you want to change the blackbox (i.e. trueskill) if the division system can achieve all the things you want? There is no reason to mess with trueskill when it is hidden from the average player anyway.
It is possible that a good division system can increase ladder activity but that won't really solve Seven's problem.
Let's say the top players now play more, because there is now a decay in the top divisions (already debatable. There are a miilion other possible reasons why they don't play a lot, but let's ignore that for now). Now you have a handful of people that play some games per week in their timezone. So if Seven doesn't happen to search in that relatively small ttimeframe he got exactly zero benefit from that.
It is normal that the top divisions in other games only are 1-2% of the players. In big games this is not a huge deal, but the FAF playerbase is relatively small. If you start to venture into the top 1% area, there are only a handful of players and you really notice that because it gets really hard to find opponents. But you can't fix that by trying to force the current top players to play more. You need to get a constant influx of new players trying to become top players. So the only real solution is to get more players. (and not 10% more, rather 10 times more). Good luck with that!

[Dragun101]

Tangetial aside, I think it'd be fun if there were some awards for laddering/playing (Custom/Unique ACU's that is aethestic change only like in Planetary Annihilation could be fun). Or something like that.

[FtXCommando]

I want to change the blackbox:
To a system in which you can boost your rating/league by playing more. In trueskill you aren't able to increase your rating by just playing a lot (and not improving). Many other games use a rating system that is far more rudimentary than trueskill. They converge a lot slower to the true rating. They do this by generating more rating for winning than loosing. So average rating is diverging over time. This gets usually fixed by resets so that the brackets can stay in the rating range.
Nice thing for players is that after every reset they will keep increasing for quite a while after the reset. Despite not winning that many games anymore. This is the grinding aspect that makes them play more games every season.
It is a system that requires maintenance and gives the possibility to boost a player into a higher bracket just by grinding ladder. And if you reward that with badges or similar I think a decent amount of the player base would do that.
Your trueskill rating won't increase if you just play more. Only if you improve.

This is a division system.

The objective of trueskill is to create as many well-balanced and therefore enjoyable games as possible and to identify people and their "skill" as quickly as possible. If your modification does not push these objectives, it will instead corrupt it.

If you want something that rewards activity, you create a structure on top of the rating system.

[Glassy_]

I've been talking a lot with Se7ven about this subject, and at first I really didn't understand why this new system he'd like added to 1v1 ranked was necessary as it would mean less balanced games some of the time. But eventually, he helped me understand that ideally, the system would work by setting up similar ranked players as it does now. However, often it takes forever to find a game because there is no one in your rank bracket searching. In these instances, it would draw from other rank pools in order to quickly find games, allowing us to play the game we know and love without waiting up to an hour to do so. Even though it would allow for less balanced games, it would create much more competition as the worse players could look at unbalanced games and improve much faster by comparing their game play to a better player's. Eventually this system of occasionally matching low and high ranked players would (hopefully) serve to re-energize high level ranked play and allow for them to find more competitive games more often. A soft reset would also incentivize those (like me) who enjoy grinding for spots on the leader board and feeling accomplished when reaching your goals instead of having 50+ inactive highly ranked players on the boards. In this system, we would like to reward active players for climbing the ranks among other active players, rather than having to sift through players with high ranks that haven't played in ages. We really don't care if Blackheart and Petric aren't active, and the goal of this system is not to get them to play more, it is to get those who care about the game still to improve in a way where they can find games and improve faster.

I'm approaching 1400 1v1 ladder games on my account, and have watched hundreds of top tier game play replays and casts, but at a certain point players need to be thrown against higher skilled players so they can see what the specific differences are between you and the higher rank you want to climb to. I think this system would create a lot more activity and allow for players to push themselves to get better, faster so we can see a larger volume of high level games while promoting climbing the leader board.

P.S. - A lot of other games (such as starcraft) have a similar system of soft resets and drawing from other rank pools, and they have done well. I don't see why Forged Alliance can't do the same.

[biass]

Even though it would allow for less balanced games, it would create much more competition as the worse players could look at unbalanced games and improve much faster by comparing their game play to a better player's.

Your whole concept is based upon the idea that all players in the ladder system are commited to improving and will not leave after repeated frustration.

That makes sense if you're discussing it in a niche group such as the EDC clan chat, wherein everyone could fit that persona.
But it isn't true for everyone else.

Eventually this system of occasionally matching low and high ranked players would (hopefully) serve to re-energize high level ranked play

When you got to the rating range where you could find 0 rating players, did you enjoy or resent the opportunity?
Did you learn anything from playing against them?
Was it fun to mindlessly stomp them?
Was it fun for the 0 to be stomped?

Translate the experience up a skill bracket.
You - a theoretical 1500, finds a 2100 in the ladder queue. This is what I can assume your "dream scenario" is for this system.

Do you think playing 1500s is fun for a 2100? Especially a player trying to find a "fair" ranked game of their own.
Do you think it will be fun for you when the reverse happens and a 1500 rated - gets put up against a 900? Will it be fun for him?

I think your concept only serves to benefit bottom feeding. Players who want to learn the game ask pro players (and trainers) to play them and get rejected en masse. Trying to bait them into playing you with the allure of them getting a balanced game will not bring pro players back into ladder, and the increase in complete stomps will not be your quote "competitive games".

Everyone outside of the extreme sweatlords will leave the queue because the purpose of the ranked system - that being to provide you a fair fight, has failed.
And anyone wanting to increase their chances of finding a good game at a higher level will have a far easier time doing so in a custom game lobby, where they can boot out anyone who doesnt know their place.

A soft reset would also incentivize those (like me) who enjoy grinding for spots on the leader board and feeling accomplished when reaching your goals instead of having 50+ inactive highly ranked players on the boards.

Grinding out a mathematical representation of your skill for a leaderboard spot will not be made easier by removing inactive players. This has already been done in the past to no effect, and nothing will halt the fact that those AFK players are better than you. If players can even be bothered to play what feels like an obligation, it will only take a couple of games until they're where they should be. time to AFK again!

Wait for leagues to return. It was always considered a superior thing to grind for a reason.

I think this system would create a lot more activity

You're going to need to explain how a system that creates a lower quality experience will increase activity.

A lot of other games (such as starcraft) have a similar system of soft resets

Dear Se7en left the FAF discord in tears after this same discussion and i'll give you the same answer I gave him.
Those games are esport orientated titles with large following and money to incentivise getting and staying good, have a proper intergrated league system, and a solid all round experience that encourages staying onboard without using 20gb of ram in the process.

We have a legacy pseudo milsim with a dancing ACU gif in our search screen.
Until we have a quality system, don't expect players to want to play it.

[FemtoZetta]

Getting rewarded with a higher rank just for playing a lot is among the worst suggestions I can imagine. It's anything but competitive and would lead to people like coca or Photon being way way higher than they deserve.

Letting low rated players get stomped more just so you can have your games is not a much better suggestion though.

Also, playing against better players doesn't automatically make you better, and not doing it doesn't prevent you from getting better either... The common thing is that they analyse their own play and think of and work on ways to get better.

The only good thing here is decay, because that is actually a representation of how skill changes without practice, and it's still missing in the implementation in FAF.