[Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby FtXCommando » 30 Oct 2019, 05:49

Calculating rating based on individual map while keeping a system for global is hilariously complicated. Do you know how many extra tables we're going to need to account for that quantity of trueskill variables? That doesn't even get to the fact that your "map rating" will mean absolutely nothing because the global games will be balanced based on the pretext of global rating and the systemic knowledge of the player that that pretext provides. That means you will have say 4 1800s against 2 1900s and 2 1700s in the game lobby. Then the "global rating for this map" might have them at 0 rating, 2000 rating, 43 rating, 450 rating vs 4 dudes at 2000 rating. How are you even supposed to resolve that situation without creating a new, just as unbalanced rating?

If we throw out the rating idea and just go with showing how many times a person played a map: you can literally already do that by searching for a player and how many times they played a map in the replay vault. Why clutter the lobby ui with it?

People need to stop presenting solutions that are the equivalent of putting a bigger bucket beneath an overflowing bucket and instead focus on fixing the faucet itself.
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby SPL » 30 Oct 2019, 11:05

You cant decide for the other players which maps they have to play.
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Brutus5000 » 30 Oct 2019, 22:24

Steel_Panther wrote:Not really, because the people complaining about inaccurate global ratings aren't the ones thatplay one of the 10x10^1000 iterations of gap. E.g. setons: there is one version.


Wrong:
Spoiler: show
Map name,Games played in the last 365 days
Seton's Clutch,82320
Adaptive Setons Clutch,1532
Seton's Thermopylae,1377
Setons Reworked,1070
Seton Clutch EP,952
Setons Lite,763
10 Seton v2,528
Seton's Clutch Fun Edition,453
Setons,419
Setons 10x10,383
Setons Miniclutch Aix,358
Setons Clutch 10x10km 8mex,220
TKP Setons Lowtide Teamplay AI,220
Xmas Setons v4,217
A_AstroSetonGapCraters_adaptive,164
Setons Clutch Rich,152
Xmas Setons v5,147
Seton's Clutch 1v1,142
Setons Rowey Edit,127
Setons Quad - 10x10,107
Seton,106
Setons Claw,100
Techno seton ,100
Setons Beach Isle,98
Setons Clutch 5v5,94
Seton's Shrunken,79
Setons Clutch Ladder,72
Seton Crater Clutch ,71
Setons Clutch DIY AIX,70
12 Seton v2 WV13,69
Setons Clutch 777,66
12 Seton ver2 V13,62
setons clutch small sixteen,62
Setons - 64 FFA,55
Seton's Clutch 2v2,50
Seton's Quad,49
setons-miniclutch,49
Setons of 128 ACUs,48
TKP Setons Lowtide Teamplay AI - larger rush circles,46
Seton's Clutches FA,42
Icy Setons,39
Four Way Setons,36
Setons on Mars,35
Setons Rebalanced,32
Setons Clutch Ultimate,31
1035 Seton's Clutch v1.1 3v3,27
12 Seton V13,26
Setons-Cauldron,26
Xmas Setons,25
Xmas Setons v3,23
Seton\'s Clutch Fun Edition,22
Setons autists V11,20
setons_cauldron_small_v2,16
TKP_SETON_LOWTIDE,16
SETON1,15
1035 Seton's Clutch v1.0 3v3,14
Seton's Clutch AI,12
Seton's Clutch 3v3,11
Seton's Clutch V2,11
Zbindens Seton's ClutchvV1,10
Fun Seton's v1,9
seton_aftermath,9
Seton's Clutches,8
Setons Death,8
SetonsFix,8
SetonsElite,7
Seton's ClutchII,5
setons clutch 8v8 10x10km 10mex,5
SetonsQuad TeamPlayAI,5
SetonWM,5
10 Seton,4
less laggy seton's,4
Setons Grasp v3,4
Seton's Clutch_Islands_v1b,3
Seton's Islands,3
Setons autists V10,3
TKP_SETON,3
TKP- SETONS DRY,3
Seton_V0020,2
Setons autists V9,2
8 Seton,1
Seton's Clutch fast Navy,1
Seton's NT,1
Setons on Mars Extrem,1
Setons Sea Clutch,1
Xmas Setons v2,1


Steel_Panther wrote:Yes I know there are dozens of iterations of gap, etc, but that shouldn't matter too much. Generally people who are playing [gap/crater} all the time are also playing the same version anyway, so that doesn't matter much at all.


Wrong for Astro Crater:
Spoiler: show
Map name,Games played in the last 365 days
Astro Crater Battles,38219
Astro Crater Battles 4x4 v2,37368
Astro Crater Battles 4x4 rich_v2,5496
Astro Crater Battles 4x4 v2 TeamPlay AI,2519
Astro Crater AC,1494
Astro Crater AC 4v4 v2 rich verison,1325
Astro Crater Battles 5vs5,1273
Astro Crater Battles Recolor,1240
AstroBunker,1213
Astro Crater Revolution,1045
Dual_astropass,952
Duel astro crator 5x5km,859
Astro Crater 3 Way FFA,846
Astro Crater Battles4x4v2 Recolor,831
Astro Crater AC 4v4,673
Astro_Crater_7vs7,618
Astro crater 6v6 new,557
Astro Craters Battles,538
AstroGantelka,511
Astro crater STANDART 16p 20x20km,509
Astro crater 6vs6,487
Astro Crater AC 4v4 V2,485
Astro crater - triple twin 5v5v5,467
3v3 Astro Crater Revamp,449
Astro Crater Battles 2v2,420
Astro Crater Battles 4x4 overmap,371
Astro Crater 5v5,315
Astro Crater Water,249
Astro Crater Batlles 5vs5,228
Astro crater 8v8 10km,224
Astro Crater Re,221
astro_crater_survival,211
Astro Crater Battles Reworked v3,208
Astro Crater 1 vs 2,193
Astro Bladesorrow,191
Astro Crater Battles 1x1 training,170
astro crater STANDART 16p 10x10km,167
A_AstroSetonGapCraters_adaptive,164
Astro Crater toper,160
Astro shmater,143
Astro Crater Real 6v6,130
Adaptive Astro Crater AC,109
Astro Crater Battles - Fun Remake,109
Astro crator 8p fix,107
astro_crater_battles_8x8,98
Astro Crater Sandstorm,95
AstroHexes,94
astro_crater_battles_1x1,93
Astro Crater Revolution.V2 (So adaptive),92
Astro_Crater_Battles_4x4_Bigger,91
Astro crater 8p fix,87
Astro Crater Batles 5vs5,79
Astro Crater Battles_Noob,78
Astro Crater AC V2,74
astro_crater_battles_4x4_new,74
Astro Crater Cancer 6v6,72
Astro Crater Battles Open 4x4 v2,66
Astro Cancer,64
Astro crater long way p12,63
Astro Crater 101,62
Astro Crater WINTER GOLD EDITION,61
Astro Crater Battles 4x4 Visual,60
Astro MWE,55
Astro crater fear island 5v5,53
Astro Crater Battles v3,47
Astro_Gap,44
Astro Crater Battles 4x4 rich,40
Astro Colony,39
Astro Crater Revolution.V2,39
Astro Crater 8v8,37
Astro Crater Battles_Noob_4x4.v03.01,37
Astro 6v6,33
Astro Crater 3v3 new,33
Astro Crater Meat 6v6 Gold Editiong ,30
Astro crater meat island p12,30
Astro Crater White Edition,26
Astro FFA4,22
Astro_Tech_Navyfix,20
Astro crater winter ,19
Astro Gastro,19
astro_crater_5vs5.v0014,18
astro_morelanes_2v2,18
5x5 Astro V2,17
astro_4_FFAmorelanesjas,17
Astro 6v6 no water,16
Astro Crater Balance Fix (beta test),16
Astro Crater Battles 1v1,16
Astro Crater Battles Reworked,16
Astro Crater Battles Reworked v2,16
Astro Crater Fun,16
astro_crater_6vs6,16
Astro_Tech,16
Astro Crater 8V8 new,14
Astro Crater Battles_Noob_4v4,13
Astro Box,11
Astro Crater Vulcan Limited Edition,11
Astro_Dragon_Tiny_4v4or3v3,11
Astro Crater Battles_NooB 4x4 v2,10
Astro Crater Gucci Gang 6v6,10
Astro lepeha crater,10
6v6 Astro rich,9
Astro Archipelago,9
Astro crater island,9
Astro Crater Winter storm,9
Astro crater cold war ,8
astro_4playerjaster,8
FAFNETWORK Astro-Crater version 1.0,8
Astro green war,7
Astro Crater 5vs5,6
Astro Crater new 6v6,6
Astro Expando Crater,6
Astro Loss Sim,6
Astro_Keeper,6
Astro_Moon_Base,6
AstroAirBattles,6
Dual Astro Crater,6
Astro Alien Pass,4
Astro crater battles 5vs5 navy battles,3
Astro Crater Battles_Noob_3v3,3
astro crater island 8vs8,3
Astro crator 10x10km p12,3
AstroAirBattles Fix,3
5x5 Astro,2
Astro_KeeperBetaV2,2
Adaptive Astro Crater Battles 2v2,1
Astro Guy War v2,1
Astro Water Tatics,1
Astro X Battle,1


Also wrong for Gap:
Spoiler: show
Map name,Games played in the last 365 days
DualGap_fix_adaptive,35619
Dual_Gap_fix.v0004,8420
gap of rohan,3736
gap_of_rohan v4_fixed_pathing,2839
Dual Gap v5.6,2555
Dual Gap Rich v5.7 beta 2,1982
Dual_Gap_fix.v0002,1831
DualGap_Reborn,1700
Gap of Rohan Fixed Pathing,1204
Dual Gap EP version 5,1155
Dual Gap v5.7 beta 2,1076
Dual Gap EP version 4,1072
Dual_Gap_Scenic_Adaptive,959
gap of rohan 5v5,688
DualGap_fix_adaptive_FAF,673
Dual Gap D-Day ,514
gap_of_rohan v7_fixed_pathing,444
Dual gap 10x5km,437
AlienGap TeamPlay_AI_no_restriction,421
Gap_O_Rohan 5v3AIx,411
Dual Gap 8v8;16pl FIXED,396
AlienGap TeamPlay_AI,370
Gap of 64 ACUs,323
Dual Gap Arch edition v2,314
NotDualGap v1,311
Gap Of Genesis TeamPlay_AI,306
Gap of Rohan Fixed Pathings,276
Duel GAP,252
Gap Of Genesis 3v3 TeamPlay_AI,244
Dual Gap EP Tropical Paradise Resort Edi,220
Lunchbox Gap 6v6,214
Sexy Sexy Dual Gap v1,211
TriGap_alpha,207
Gap of Rohai (3v3),202
gap_of_rohan v8_fixed_pathing,200
Dual Gap EP,195
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Adapt Mex 5.0,191
Gap_5v3AIx,180
Gap in Love v1,177
A_AstroSetonGapCraters_adaptive,164
Gap of rohan 8v8,157
GapOfRohan 5v2AIx,156
Cool Dual Gap v2,150
Gap of Rohun,150
ZePilOt Dual Gap v6,144
Dual_Gap_fix.v0001,135
gap_of_rohan v6_fixed_pathing,127
Gap Of Genesis 2v2 TeamPlay_AI,124
Duel GAP 5v5 C,122
Dual Gap Reloaded,106
Gap Of Rohan New,106
Gap Of Genesis II,98
ZePilOt Dual Gap v4,82
Dual Gap v5.6 Markers,79
Gap of Flaps ,79
Gap of Rohan 10 fixed_pathing.v0002,78
Gap of Rohan 10 fixed_pathing.v0003,76
Duel GAP 6v6,73
GB_GAP_7V7,70
OctoOctoGap,69
Gap of Rohan Freaks v2 made by GPGnet,67
OCTO GAP GAP,67
Gap of Wonder 4v4,65
DualGap_4v4,59
DualGap_Max_Cancer,59
Cool Dual Gap v1,56
Dual Gap Adaptive v5.6,56
gap of the caribbean,52
Gape of Rohan Rebuild,51
Open Dual Gap v2.2,49
MEGA_MASS_GAP.v0001,48
Dual Gap 8v8 16pl new mex,47
Gap of Rohan v2 Fixed Pathing,47
Horn Gap,47
Astro_Gap,44
Dual Gap 8v8;16pl,44
6v6 Christmas Gap V6 by KD7BCH,41
DEUL GAP,40
Gap Of Rohan Island,40
DualGapTehnNO,37
Duel GAP 5v5 v14,37
Hex Dual Gap Ultimate,36
Dual_Gap_Scenic_Adaptive.v0001,35
Dual Gap 8v8 16p new mex big water,33
dualgap_fix_adaptive_turtlimate.v0001,33
Duel Gap mini 2v2,33
Mini Dual Gap,33
Lunchbox Gap 5v5,32
Gap of Crater,31
gap of rohan5v5,31
Dual Gap OCEAN Alpha0.5,29
Duel Gap mini 2v2 v2 fixed mass,29
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Adapt Mex v10,29
Gap of Rohan Freaks v1,27
Gap Of Genesis,27
Gap_Island,27
Tri-Gap,24
ZePilOt Dual Gap v8,24
Lunchbox Gap,23
Dual Gap Scenic Adaptive,22
Dual Gap Crystal Edition,21
DualGap_WC,21
Gap Of Rohan Island Fixed,21
Gap of Bermuda,20
gap of rohan 2pro,20
Real Gap mini,20
Dual Gap Fun v1,19
Gap of Rhonda TeamPlay,19
Open Dual Gap v2,19
GAP,17
gap_of_rohan v5_fixed_pathing,17
Gape of Rohan,17
Sexy Sexy Dual Gap v2,17
Dual gap MLGTASTIC edit ,16
Dual GapFun v1,16
Water_Gap,16
Air gap 5vs5,15
Dual Gap v5.7 beta 1,14
Strategic Gap,14
Dual Gap Arch edition,13
Dynamic Duel Gap,13
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Adapt Mex v8,13
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Adapt Mex v9,13
Lucky 7 Gap,13
Gap of God v1,12
Dual Gap Forever,11
dual_gap_land.v0001,11
DualGap Reborn 8v8,11
FAFNETWORK Baby Dual Gap v4,11
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Mex 5.0,11
Super Gap Forever v 2,10
Gap Of Genesis Isolation,9
DualGap Adaptive With AI,8
Duel GAP 5v5,8
Gap Of Rohan Island 4Vs4,8
Gap of Rohan Isolation,8
gap of the caribbean 0.4,8
Gap of Rohan v3,7
Gap Of Genesis Survivor,7
Gap of Ronin,7
ZePilOt Dual Gap v7,7
Dual Gap mini,6
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Adapt Mex v7 ,5
gap of harad,5
gap of the caribbean 0.5,5
k1+Gap reborn,5
ZePilOt Dual Gap,5
ZePilOt Dual Gap v2,5
Dual Gap reswars,4
Gap of Rohan Aftermath,4
gap_of_rohan v3_fixed_pathing,4
The Gap of Elysium,4
Dual Gap Destitute v5.6,3
Dual Gap EP version 2,3
FAFNETWORK Baby Dual Gap v1,3
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Mex 3.0,3
Gap By Super 2,3
Open Dual Gap v1.5,3
6v6 Christmas Gap,2
Dual Gap EP version 3,2
Dual Gap in Peace v1,2
Gap Of Genesis - Commander Wars,2
Open Dual Gap v1.4,2
5v5 Pitch Black Gap,1
Double Gap,1
Dual_Gap_fix.v0003,1
DualGap_4v4_Edition,1
DualGap_Reborn 8v8,1
Dynamic Dual Gap,1
FAFNETWORK Baby Dual Gap v2,1
FAFNETWORK Dual Gap Adapt Mex 6.0,1
gap_of _rohan_v2,1
Open Duel Gap v1.1,1
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Steel_Panther » 02 Nov 2019, 00:12

Brutus I would say that your evidence supports me. Fine, maybe not ALL the games are on just a single map, but the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, for each of those maps, are played on a very small fraction of the total "available versions" of each map. I have literally never seen more than 2 of the setons versions even hosted.

FTX I'll put it this way. If two additional tables displayed in the lobby clutter it up too much for you, "well you know, that's just like, your opinion, man." Honestly the faf client is so laggy and clunky that even searching through the vault is very annoying. And it literally DOESN'T perform the task you say it does. You can't find out how many total games someone has played on a certain map, unless you are willing to literally count every single game that is listed for their online replays. Is that honestly your solution? Otherwise, as I previously said, you can just get a glimpse of what they have been playing lately. The point is that it would help a whole lot and be very useful to know HOW MUCH WEIGHT to give to a player's global rating, for that map, without having to do a shitload of searching and counting for every single player...

I never ever said it would replace global. Where are people getting that from?

I'm so sick of this garbage excuse, "hey, that idea isn't perfect." Ok, so how many F**CKING YEARS do we have to wait for this system to be improved? It's like if you're driving a shitty 1995 honda civic, and then your neighbor offers to sell you their 2014 BMW for 200 bucks (a huge improvement!), but you say, No way, a Ferrari is way better! So you keep driving the garbage vehicle forever, thinking, "hey someday I will have a great vehicle!" How many users does FAF has to lose before that happens?

"Don't make perfect the enemy of the good." (especially when complete garbage is what you currently have)
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Brutus5000 » 03 Nov 2019, 18:45

No, it seems like you missed my point. These are only the maps that have been played. The whole vault is completely spammed with these maps and categorizing them (or banning) them would be an enormous effort. If you start deleting the top3, people will just use some of the others. If you start deleting all of them, people will just upload new ones (just as they did before - for whatever reasons).
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Steel_Panther » 08 Nov 2019, 03:58

Brutus5000 wrote:No, it seems like you missed my point. These are only the maps that have been played. The whole vault is completely spammed with these maps and categorizing them (or banning) them would be an enormous effort. If you start deleting the top3, people will just use some of the others. If you start deleting all of them, people will just upload new ones (just as they did before - for whatever reasons).


Are you just trolling or did you not actually read my posts? That's literally the exact opposite of what I said.

edit:

From my very first post: "Sure let people play whatever they want."
I never at any point said we should delete or ban any maps, or even categorize them. The closest I said was responding to keyser, "Sure you could combine them all together I suppose, but the point is to know if they have a decent rating on THE OTHER MAPS." Which obviously shows I didn't suggest it, or even care if that happened anyway because I think that would be pretty pointless and not help solve the problem I care about (rating on NON-TURTLE MAPS).

Honestly how bad is your reading comprehension?
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Hyalatoh » 08 Nov 2019, 15:14

Limit the lobby to 8/10 payer like it is on Steam.
Less co issues, more games. Less cancer Map.
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Brutus5000 » 09 Nov 2019, 21:50

Steel_Panther wrote:
Brutus5000 wrote:No, it seems like you missed my point. These are only the maps that have been played. The whole vault is completely spammed with these maps and categorizing them (or banning) them would be an enormous effort. If you start deleting the top3, people will just use some of the others. If you start deleting all of them, people will just upload new ones (just as they did before - for whatever reasons).


Are you just trolling or did you not actually read my posts? That's literally the exact opposite of what I said.

edit:

From my very first post: "Sure let people play whatever they want."
I never at any point said we should delete or ban any maps, or even categorize them. The closest I said was responding to keyser, "Sure you could combine them all together I suppose, but the point is to know if they have a decent rating on THE OTHER MAPS." Which obviously shows I didn't suggest it, or even care if that happened anyway because I think that would be pretty pointless and not help solve the problem I care about (rating on NON-TURTLE MAPS).

Honestly how bad is your reading comprehension?


You suggested to add a rating per map. This is totally unrealistic, as this would add another 2000+ different independent ratings into the system. We already have problems with ratings of new people because they have so few games (they get kicked out of games because they don't have enough games), this would massively increase the issue. Also this doesn't really fit if you have basically exact same maps on Dual Gap and you have 10 different ratings there because you didn't play on them often enough to let the game "learn" your rating. The only logical way is to go for rating per map category, which was suggested in the past multiple times. Here I explained why this is not working.
Sorry if thinking a few steps further is too much for you to handle.
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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Louvegarde » 09 Nov 2019, 22:24

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Re: [Discus] Asto Craters Ban? Ban players on the craters?

Postby Steel_Panther » 09 Nov 2019, 23:16

Brutus5000 wrote:
You suggested to add a rating per map.


Nope.


This is totally unrealistic, as this would add another 2000+ different independent ratings into the system.


Only if a complete moron is designing it. Because I very clearly said and will repeat for the infinitieth time, it would show ONE extra rating, for the map hosted in the current lobby. There is no need to calculate rating for EVERY OTHER MAP, INCLUDING THOSE THAT YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED. Only a moron coder would do that. I don't think I have ever played more than 100 different maps in my lifetime.

And while no one has actually said so, IF it is the case that the rating for a map MUST be calculated and stored ahead of time (after playing the map) and not calculated when joining a lobby, you still could solve THE PROBLEM I WAS TALKING ABOUT (wanting to know rating on the non-gap/crater maps), by only calculating maybe 10-20 of the most popular maps, and then displaying that ONE map-rating in the lobby, if there is such an estimated rating available for that map. Otherwise the lobby could show "N/A" in the map-rating column. Is that an insurmountable difficulty? I don't think so, but you tell me. But it is OBVIOUSLY not required that you calculate a separate rating for the 100 versions of gap that only a handful of people have ever even played, and every other map that I have never even heard of. This is some garbage straw-man argument that every map needs to have a rating calculated. To be extra clear since it is obviously not sinking in with you, I DON'T EVEN WANT A MAP-RATING FOR ANY OF THE GAP OR CRATER MAPS, you can just ignore them.

We already have problems with ratings of new people because they have so few games (they get kicked out of games because they don't have enough games), this would massively increase the issue.


No. You still have global rating, and if they are noobs they are playing all welcome noob games anyway. If someone gets kicked out because they have a higher global rating but a low rating or few games on a specific map, then it's because THE SYSTEM I DESCRIBED IS WORKING EXACTLY AS INTENDED!

Also this doesn't really fit if you have basically exact same maps on Dual Gap and you have 10 different ratings there because you didn't play on them often enough to let the game "learn" your rating. The only logical way is to go for rating per map category, which was suggested in the past multiple times. Here I explained why this is not working.

See above.

Sorry if thinking a few steps further is too much for you to handle.


You're actually a few steps behind because you literally cannot read and understand what I was suggesting.
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