[Discussion] High Altitude the 5th Front

[salemdestroyer]

From below to above.

Seabed (+ submerged)
Sea (+ Hover)
Land (+ Hover)
Air
And the treasure chest High Altitude

Long story short, i think it is about time we consider High Altitude as the next patch for FAF.

High Altitude / Orbit is the last legacy GPG left behind before going extinct and we the Aeo- excuse me, the FA fanatics could make use of it for further development.

I've seen my fare share of mods utilise this uncharted layer, mostly from Orbital Wars. The introduction of Space Ships + anti-orbital units and ASF + CZAR that can enter the orbit. It was a fun mod.

Black ops also invests a little on it with the Strategic Missile Defense that could counter Novax and the newly added Artemis Satellite.

I think we can make good use of these raw material to craft the new patch. These below are my suggestions with my gratitude toward all the previous modders.

I/ Strategic bomber that can enter orbit. Strategic bombers need to escape orbit to start aiming their bombs. So right after they escape orbit they require a few seconds to start acquire targets and bombing.

II/ ASF can also do the same. They are equipped with additional Orbit-2-Orbit missiles. ASF will only use their AA attack when in low altitude while only using Orbit-2-orbit missile when in High Altitude. New functions for their attack include: 1) Air-2-air missile will only target air units but they can chase the target up to orbit and 2) Orbit-2-Orbit missiles will only target Orbital units but they also can chase the target down to lower altitude. These changes will ensure no one exploit the high altitude and low altitude target system to abuse. I saw ASF can attack air units that are resting on the ground so this new change should be doable.

III/ In fact all Fighters and Bombers from T1 to T3 should be able to enter orbit. The exception are Scouts, Torpedo bombers, Transport and Gunships. By entering orbit, these units should be flying at 30% their normal speed. Lore-wise, it doesn't make sense but for balance purpose let it be.

IV/ Ahwassa can also enter orbit and rule for bombers and ASF also apply to Ahwassa's weapons. Ahwassa now has a new anti-orbit weapon. Firing 2 Ultrachromatic Beam Generator the same thing that is mounted on T2 seraphim point defense. This Orbit weapon only target orbital units, however. 200 dps per laser for a total 400 dps and 35 range.

V/ Novax Health change to 15 000. It has a Dual-Barreled Hiro Plasma Cannon for anti-orbit. The one on UEF T3 Neptune Battlecruiser with 345 dps and its range reduce to 50. When a Novax got shotted down, the Novax center can rebuilt it. Max 1 Novax for every center. If the center is destroyed, the Novax also self-destruct. Novax crash damage nerf to 500. Novax Center buildpower is 300 so it takes 100s to finish rebuild a Novax (30000 build time). Most of the mass cost for Novax is transferred to Novax Center. Novax retain around 3000 mass while the rest is transferred to the build cost of the station.

VI/ With experimental units in space, i will propose to change SAM T3 Anti-air launcher. As with ASF's missile. SAM missiles will also target air but will chase them up to orbit. Furthermore, the launchers have another set of missile, the SOM (Surface to Orbit missile). SOM act independently with the SAM missile, it will only target orbit but also chasing their target. Their dps will be half that of the SAM due to longer reload time. In total, the SAM T3 anti-air launcher will have a boost in dps because they can now attack orbital units.

VII/ T3 SMD have additional function and is equipped with anti-orbit missile. The missiles fly faster than the SAM launcher's SOM but deal less damage and is an area-damage weapon. Think of this as a orbit flak cannon. Firing a cluster of 20 missiles Deal 100 damage over 3 radius for each missile. Reload time 10s.

For now, that's all i can think off. Constructive opinions are welcomed.

[MrTBSC]

From below to above.

Seabed (+ submerged)
Sea (+ Hover)
Land (+ Hover)
Air
And the treasure chest High Altitude

Long story short, i think it is about time we consider High Altitude as the next patch for FAF.

High Altitude / Orbit is the last legacy GPG left behind before going extinct and we the Aeo- excuse me, the FA fanatics could make use of it for further development.

I've seen my fare share of mods utilise this uncharted layer, mostly from Orbital Wars. The introduction of Space Ships + anti-orbital units and ASF + CZAR that can enter the orbit. It was a fun mod.

Black ops also invests a little on it with the Strategic Missile Defense that could counter Novax and the newly added Artemis Satellite.

I think we can make good use of these raw material to craft the new patch. These below are my suggestions with my gratitude toward all the previous modders.

I/ Strategic bomber that can enter orbit. Strategic bombers need to escape orbit to start aiming their bombs. So right after they escape orbit they require a few seconds to start acquire targets and bombing.

II/ ASF can also do the same. They are equipped with additional Orbit-2-Orbit missiles. ASF will only use their AA attack when in low altitude while only using Orbit-2-orbit missile when in High Altitude. New functions for their attack include: 1) Air-2-air missile will only target air units but they can chase the target up to orbit and 2) Orbit-2-Orbit missiles will only target Orbital units but they also can chase the target down to lower altitude. These changes will ensure no one exploit the high altitude and low altitude target system to abuse. I saw ASF can attack air units that are resting on the ground so this new change should be doable.

III/ In fact all Fighters and Bombers from T1 to T3 should be able to enter orbit. The exception are Scouts, Torpedo bombers, Transport and Gunships. By entering orbit, these units should be flying at 30% their normal speed. Lore-wise, it doesn't make sense but for balance purpose let it be.

IV/ Ahwassa can also enter orbit and rule for bombers and ASF also apply to Ahwassa's weapons. Ahwassa now has a new anti-orbit weapon. Firing 2 Ultrachromatic Beam Generator the same thing that is mounted on T2 seraphim point defense. This Orbit weapon only target orbital units, however. 200 dps per laser for a total 400 dps and 35 range.

V/ Novax Health change to 15 000. It has a Dual-Barreled Hiro Plasma Cannon for anti-orbit. The one on UEF T3 Neptune Battlecruiser with 345 dps and its range reduce to 50. When a Novax got shotted down, the Novax center can rebuilt it. Max 1 Novax for every center. If the center is destroyed, the Novax also self-destruct. Novax crash damage nerf to 500. Novax Center buildpower is 300 so it takes 100s to finish rebuild a Novax (30000 build time). Most of the mass cost for Novax is transferred to Novax Center. Novax retain around 3000 mass while the rest is transferred to the build cost of the station.

VI/ With experimental units in space, i will propose to change SAM T3 Anti-air launcher. As with ASF's missile. SAM missiles will also target air but will chase them up to orbit. Furthermore, the launchers have another set of missile, the SOM (Surface to Orbit missile). SOM act independently with the SAM missile, it will only target orbit but also chasing their target. Their dps will be half that of the SAM due to longer reload time. In total, the SAM T3 anti-air launcher will have a boost in dps because they can now attack orbital units.

VII/ T3 SMD have additional function and is equipped with anti-orbit missile. The missiles fly faster than the SAM launcher's SOM but deal less damage and is an area-damage weapon. Think of this as a orbit flak cannon. Firing a cluster of 20 missiles Deal 100 damage over 3 radius for each missile. Reload time 10s.

For now, that's all i can think off. Constructive opinions are welcomed.

the primary problem i see with allowing stratbombers and other units to be capable to shift between air and orbit is they now can bypass mobile AA that is not in the base ..

also how else do you have vision on the orbital layer besides the units in it? standart radar or omni only?
otherwise it would make it quite difficult for orbit to airshift bombardmeant to anticipate .. how long is the shift meant to take? what does a couple seconds mean?

also besides existing experimentals capable to shift what else is there meant to be? .. i see no real point in having the orbital layer being filled with units that only fight within that particular layer .. you have air for that already .. and you even have airgunboats ..

[salemdestroyer]

So you want a mobile unit that can also counter orbit? Well, make sense.

Easiest way to fix that to me is allowing T3 mobile anti air units to have another SOM missiles that act similar to the one SAM launchers have as mentioned at section VI. However, the damage of these SOM must be tuned down because i did say Orbit speed of Units are 30% slower and SAM launcher dps is halved against orbit units. Will want to keep thing balanced.

I am not sure about the current meta but base on the campaign i can still see Novax just fine. High Altitude seem to be treated as Air space for me so anything that can detect air can also apply for Orbit.

The shifting is probably depended on the speed of each units. Descending and ascending are pretty much units fly up or down so it will be depended on unit speed. I will say ASF take 4s to complete at 0 gamespeed, other units will take little bit longer. Bomber type units will require an additional 3s before they can aim and drop their load.

And since i restrict this to only Fighter and Bombers, other units with slow speed like Torpedo Bombers, Transport and Gunship will not enter orbit. I am still concern about Spy plane or Air Scout. Unsure if i should allow them to be.

[biass]

Air is already made to be very intentionally simple, there isnt really interplay between craft (one can turn faster but one is faster etc) so i don't see how this strange system will add anything positive, all I can really see it doing is allowing corsairs to just bypass all AA weapons for free in case of an air loss.

The sub orbital layer should probably introduce a different element to the game rather than being some form of addiditonal air system. Think themes more dedicated to intel gathering, weapons that can glass entire regions, and special craft that can intercept those.

The novax for example requires auxillary boosters to launch the satellite to that level from the ground. So you should think about special factories or unit cannon like hangars to launch craft from the ground, for example responding to an incoming super weapon by launching some form of rapid response unit or defense satelites.

Units like this should perhaps require fuel or energy to run, and can come crashing down to earth or float lifelessly in orbit if they are not maintained, you could then introduce units like reclamation satelites or a special unit that lets you drop those husks with limited control as a weapon. You could also try a kessler syndome like idea where debris can prevent other satelites or craft from passing or actually deal damage too.

Also of course, special anti space point defense, that can be built at the beginning of that phase, as opposed to a premade unit randomly being able to defend against two layers at once. Think the umbrella from PA, they should of course be expensive eye candy weapons, like a massive laser or MAC cannon or whatnot, because only casual players will play it regardless and they're the ones most likely to enjoy eye candy.

Anyway, you're probably never gonna get such a radical change into a FAF patch and especially not if it's ramshackle mod tier. You're definetly going to need to think up something completely new instead of just giving old units random worldbreaking weapons and abilities that work here but not there and etc. So good luck with that, you'll need to find someone to mod that in too, try the maps and mods discord.

[salemdestroyer]

I think you misunderstood me.

I know fully well this will not be implemented or tested or tried anytime soon. I also know that my idea has many holes, many flaws and in need of opinion to perfect it. That's why i named the Title "[Discussion] High Altitude the 5th Front" with [Discussion] in Highlight. The main reason for this topic is to encourage people to talk and giving me opinion on it to help me understand the flaws and how to fix it. I won't be able to get anywhere if i can't encourage people to at least talking about it.

"Long story short, i think it is about time we consider High Altitude as the next patch for FAF."

This is where it started. This is where i want people to think about it.

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Think themes more dedicated to intel gathering, weapons that can glass entire regions, and special craft that can intercept those.

When you make a layer that only dedicated to just a specific function, its connection with other layers will grow weak. Seabed/sea/land/air all of these layers are interconnected to each other through many units and property.

Amphibious, hover and aircrafts that will land after a while.

Seabed and Sea have submerge as its sub-layer.
While, Sea and Land have hover as its sub-layer.

These main layer and its sub-layer have connection.

I tried to replicate these connection by giving certain air/land units the ability to directly attack them. Some can use both weapon system at the same time (SAM Launcher and mobile anti-air land) or can only use depend on which layer they are in (ASF) or can switch between them.


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instead of just giving old units random worldbreaking weapons and abilities that work here but not there and etc.

These are just weird that i don't understand what you are trying to say. You suggested that the new layer should be dedicated for "intel gathering, weapons that can glass entire regions, and special craft that can intercept those" but then you say "instead of just giving old units random worldbreaking weapons and abilities that work here but not there and etc."


Your arguments are just clashing each other head on, i have no idea what you tried to advice. I have never mentioned anything about "giving old units random worldbreaking weapons and abilities" because i know how broken it will be without any possibility to fix it. Then you want "weapons that can glass entire regions". This is just broken.

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You also proposed drastic ideas like

Also of course, special anti space point defense, that can be built at the beginning of that phase, as opposed to a premade unit randomly being able to defend against two layers at once. Think the umbrella from PA, they should of course be expensive eye candy weapons, like a massive laser or MAC cannon or whatnot, because only casual players will play it regardless and they're the ones most likely to enjoy eye candy.

It can be made but currently SupCom have no system like that. Suddenly introducing a space builders, In-space point defense into SupCom is a bad idea. It is destined to fail. That's why i did not suggest that in the 1st place but instead choosing a set of original units and giving them ability to enter high altitude to test out how thing will change. Making a new units with that exist in a new layer will make it so disconnected with other units and game mechanic. That's why i had to rely on existing units to implement these idea because these units already have a role, i can add a little extra function to them and see how they perform and it is easier to fix.


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The novax for example requires auxillary boosters to launch the satellite to that level from the ground. So you should think about special factories or unit cannon like hangars to launch craft from the ground, for example responding to an incoming super weapon by launching some form of rapid response unit or defense satelites.

Units like this should perhaps require fuel or energy to run, and can come crashing down to earth or float lifelessly in orbit if they are not maintained, you could then introduce units like reclamation satelites or a special unit that lets you drop those husks with limited control as a weapon. You could also try a kessler syndome like idea where debris can prevent other satelites or craft from passing or actually deal damage too.

These are good ideas but it will have to be left for later. At least until we got basic result on how the game turned out with the existing units.

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For whatever happens, i am fine with thing get change gradually. Time is not an issue for me because FA is forever but at least, i want to give it a thought first. No harm in thinking and talking, right?


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But don't you think the mobile unit is getting over burdened due to this?

Regards,
L.Smith

I don't quite understand.

[biass]

Your arguments are just clashing each other head on, i have no idea what you tried to advice. I have never mentioned anything about "giving old units random worldbreaking weapons and abilities" because i know how broken it will be without any possibility to fix it. Then you want "weapons that can glass entire regions". This is just broken.

not overpowered but weapons that break lore or unit purpose, the supcom world so to speak

Suddenly introducing a space builders, In-space point defense into SupCom is a bad idea. It is destined to fail.

i never said the defense structure was in space, please google planetary annihilation umbrella and try again

i am fine with thing get change gradually. Time is not an issue for me because FA is forever but at least, i want to give it a thought first. No harm in thinking and talking, right?

FAF doesn't have the talent to make this for a test, you'll need likely need to find (with cash maybe) someone who can or do it yourself regardless of if the idea takes off

[salemdestroyer]

i am fine with thing get change gradually. Time is not an issue for me because FA is forever but at least, i want to give it a thought first. No harm in thinking and talking, right?

FAF doesn't have the talent to make this for a test, you'll need likely need to find (with cash maybe) someone who can or do it yourself regardless of if the idea takes off

I will do thing in order though and start with discussing. The mod or test can wait after a more complete concept is finished.

[BlackYps]

You will need to have new units for the new layer. Making existing units access the layer without any units will just make things more complicated without a real benefit. You already need to introduce new weapons to interact on the new layer. Just go the full way and mount them on new units. Then this could develop into an interesting mod that adds to the gameplay without disturbing the current unit roles too much.

[tatsu]

great ideas.

I support changing things up and using the space layer more.

I like most of your suggestions but the speed nerf on space layer makes absolutely no sense to me.

yeah yeah it makes no sense from a lore point of view but have you considered that it also makes no sense from a balance and gameplay point of view?

if the units that can go there are fighters and bombers but bombers can only bomb on air layer... then why does any unit ever enter the orbital layer at all?

oh you might say "to avoid anti air fire from everything else" but technically speaking, by volume of incoming fire (if counted by DPS, but I think counting by projectiles works as well) the crushing majority comes from other air units.

so you move your bombers up a layer... great!... now they're a sitting duck even more so then they were in the air layer : ASF swarms are more efficient against bombers at lower speeds.

You also say that sams should target the orbital layer.

okay the orbital layer as described sounds like a world of suck no unit would ever want to go to.

If you only make one small alteration to your proposed model : instead of nerfing the speed in orbital you buff it, then all of the sudden an interesting dynamic develops :

now there is motive, however minor, to go to the orbital layer for your bombers : a better chance at catching the opponent off guard.

If, via the space layer, you gain some time on your snipe run, it naturally follows that this could be a net benefit risk to take.

ASFs must follow suit in order to counter them. better yet, as a preventive measure you might choose to split your asf swathe between the two layers. their positioning might also be entirely different based on the layer. the reduced anti-air fire in this higher altitude means you can place them further into enemy territory and this would be to your advantage as that is where the enemy bombers are likely to ascend.

On and on it goes.

and yeah you get the added bonus of this matching with the "lore"/science : to get into orbit you have to be going faster.

but I only see all of this "matching logic" as a biproduct of this game being a simulation... in simulations, things start to work better from a gameplay perspective when you make them more realistic.

I digress,

anyways there's loads of ways to pick at this mechanic and enhance it into something really gameplay worthy :

the idea of no available ground to space weaponry being available at all could be one interesting dynamic, or there being a separate set of structures/units dedicated to only this could also make for something interesting.

I personally think the most interesting way to do this would be the following :

• no ground to space solutions
• obviously your idea of the bombing run alignment having to be done entirely in the air layer stays. (with the current balance for bombers this should assure the current air defense dynamic stays entirely the same.)
• air units cost stats stay the same
• ALL air units start out space-capable by default, much bulkier with particularly SLOWER speeds and with WIDER turn radii. They have these extra bits that are the thrusters that are both responsible for getting them into space and space-capable. These can either be set to decouple right out the factory (via a attack priority set on the factory ...this priority could also be the default so as to set back the "space "age") or be decoupled manually at a time of the user's choosing via a unit action. Once in space their turn radius remains the same nerfed radius but their speed is superior to even their decoupled versions in the air layer. Re-entering orbit ALWAYS decouples them. the decoupled thrusters ALWAYS disintegrate and do not collide or leave any wreaks. Once decoupled they regain current turn radii and speed but they can no longer enter space for the rest of their life unless they dock at a refueling station set to the "add thrusters mode". (To sum up : two action buttons are added to the air unit : - "ascend to space" and - a "decouple/descend to air layer" button. while in the air layer both are available, if the decouple button is pressed, both buttons disappear and the rockets decouple, if instead you click the ascend button, it disappears and the craft ascends to space (overall behaves like a submarine except the action button is split into two). while in the space layer you only have the descend/decouple button left and that button does both those things, and then disappears.)
• refueling stations of all sorts (static, cybran cruiser, fatboy, atlantis, carriers, donut) all get an extra switchable mode for setting whether they rebuild the space thrusters of any docking aircraft. It is set to off by default. If turned on, the refueling and repair will be followed by re-adding these thrusters which I'm eyeballing at 400milliseconds for build time and 5mass 1000power. I dunno the idea is it should be penalizing that you got rid of them either for air-layer speed or re-entry reuse of the same unit, but not too much because you are taking the time and micro to re-fit them. (an alternate version of this balance is without the option of adding the thrusters back on at all so as to punish ditching them even harder)
• while T4 air can ascend and descend once, their ascent thrusters are lost PERMANENTLY and CANNOT be rebuilt

As you can probably deduce from these rules, now the trip up and down is no longer a full freedom, but a minor investment and sort-of one-way.

obviously then the dynamic becomes multiplied :

do I stomach the poorer overall air units in order to keep my space options fully open?

do I forgo space for now by setting the factory to ditch all thrusters because I desperately need air control right now?

do I build half and half and send the suited ones straight to space and minimize my interchanging of layers in a effort to save resources and apm instead of time?

do I build more refueling solutions and utilize them to make the might of my death swarm felt as I send a greater force up and down both layers?

this is all spit-balling, feel free to improve upon this.

all this being said , one idea that I do not like is messing with the novax. if fighters in the space layer can't target it that's fine, but if they can there will be no way to buff the novax in a way that makes it worthwhile anymore. like not even if you give it a bazillion health points. you have no idea the kinda air swarms people can and will produce.

so let's just say it's in a "much higher orbit " and call it a day, this way it's dynamic continues to function.

[vongratz]

Several orbital units are being developed in a new mod version. https://www.moddb.com/mods/fbp-future-b ... n#imagebox