League/Ladder system - linked to Team Matchmaker

[Ithilis_Quo]

Hello to everyone, it was long time that Ithilis write something, or even play something, but i want to know that i still love you dear FAF (comunity).
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When Tokyto was player concilor ill make some reasarche and scetch for him about how to make serious competioton in our game. It was discused by concil but never done and while this topic start be issue again (finaly) will be courage enought to add my piece into fire.
This system will be less accurate balancewise but more competetive and make many natural game-life events. Ill try make this post as simly as posible and write only raw rules, whiteout long description.
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How Ladder should work:

Ladder divisions:

Spoiler: show

0 - 1000 - Noob division
1001 - (1200) - 1400 Beginner division
1401 - 1600 Advanced division
1601 - 1800 Master division
1801 - 2000 Grand Master division
2001 + Supremme division

rulles of Ladder:

Spoiler: show

- table show division and points depend on division 1000 / 400 / 200
- every match divides 32 point based on teams proportion
-- beginer division vs beginer division divide 64 point instead (for faster corection), if is at least one player from different division it keeps 32
- for jump to higher division player must acumulate 200 / 400 / 1000 point (depent on division) and then won 3 from 5 next match
- for fall to down division player need reach points that is below 0, it not won at least 3 from 5 next match automaticly fall down
-- on time that player reach border poins for promotion/downgrade, table dont show points but 5 circle instead, that is green for victory, red for lose empty for games not played yet.
-- points are still accumulate but are hiden for player while he get them together after played all 5 (potentially 3 lose) games.
- when player is promoted for division he will get "free" +32 points -> for higer stability of divisions, this mean that when someone is promoted he will get 3x (on perfect balance) 16 points + 32 = middling 80 point in higer division, so he is cca in middle where can lose games and still not fall back so easily. Same if player dont succed he lose poins for losing 3 games, and will need to won some point to get back in graduation mod.

- There is 1v1 2v2 3v3 formats
- 2v2 3v3 also divide 32 (64 in begginer division) take into accont only teams point proportion and then all player of team will get same points for win/lose.
- teamates get random positions ower map with autobalance, there is no lobby before game start

- every year ladder rating will be reseted (not TrueSkill that balance oponents, its untached), and then open new season where all players start again from 1200 (ladder points) what is in middle of beginner division. New season start week after 16. February what is realse date of original game for celebrating this great history day.
- all players in game are anonymous, he/she can write who he/she is in chat, but game will show that only when game end (inspired by galactic wars). Instead of name is player fraction f.e.: Aeon - Master division vs UEF Master division (this prevent copy strategy agains conrete palyers gamestyle - its ladder not custom game/tournament)
- when game end, chat bot will write who play against who and how was divided points (this is also for propagating, and make it more on eyes)
- oponents are picked by TrueSkill rating to fit player skill and have proper game
- ladder games affect custom games trueskill rating, but ladder games points are not indicator of skill, but are indicator of how players are going on season gathering points. There will be different points on start and end of season, while get somewhere need time, and play games.


- main ladder table is one for all ladder formats, but show % percentage of points that get from solo/duo/team formats
-- there is also separete table for only 1v1 2v2 3v3, but main point indicator, and other think are geting from main table
- ladder table show "achievments" as higest movement for last 7/30/90 days, defeat higer player differences, there is place for creativity
- player color in FAF chat is same as is color of him curent division

Tournaments:

- There are 3 qarter year tournamts and final year championship tournament


Quarter year tournament:

Spoiler: show

- qualificated are top 12 (confirmed) ladder players,
- double elimination,
- first game is 2v2, next are 1v1
- winer + second position are insta qualified for championship tournament

on the end of FAF year what is first weekend after 16 February (day of realse) - or some other symbolic day championship tournament begin!
Winner of this tournament will be supremme comander world champion!

championship tournament - qualification:

Spoiler: show

- top 14 (confirmed) players from supremme/grand master/master division + 3x winers + 3x seconds of qarter year tournaments (if its same as top 14, or not confirm for tournament, then more players from top ladder palyers) + 4 higher movement for mouth 11, 10, 9, 8 (if not confirm, then more top ladder players) to final 24 players.
- for qualification must have over 25% game type proportion from at least two of solo/duo/team games
- for qualification must be at least in Master dividion

- confirming = send 10€ deposite for tournament director, that will be send back when play at least one game.
- end of cualification is 7 days before tournament, where must fit into terms, or place is replaced with other in ladder.

Championship tournament:

Spoiler: show

- 24 players are divided to 4 groups by 6 players
- every group play first 1x 3v3 (random autobalance) 2x 2v2 (diferent teams autobalance), 3x 1v1
- game time maximum 90/60/30 minutes, on that time team with more alive players won, it its same its draw.
- victory 3 points, draw 1 point, defeat 0 point

- first two of all group groups proceed to 1v1 play off, that is next day. (if same point for 3th and 2th. players, then 1v1 and winner is proceed)

- most point vs less point - winer is proceed lose is kicked
- quatrifinals same
- semifinals must win 2 from 3 games (with same oponent)
- final must win 2 from 3 games

winner is world champion of year
next week start new season, all player start again with 1200 point (200) in begginer division.

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Disuse !

Edited - Ill implement good notes from discusion, concrete balancing games only by trueskill, + better describe complicate pasages, teamates posibility

[ThomasHiatt]

I'm not going to seriously compete in the game unless I can make serious money by doing so. I'm also not sure if serious competition is beneficial or what FAF needs. Why do you think serious competition is needed?

[FtXCommando]

This system will be less accurate balancewise but more competetive and make many natural game-life events.

This seems like a bad premise to begin with. I don’t really know what a natural game-life event is or why I’d sacrifice game quality for the sake of it. I’m also not really sure how it would be possible to increase competition in an environment where we degenerate the tool used to balance people against one another.

Ladder divisions:

Spoiler: show

0 - 1000 -> Noob division
1001 - (1200) - 1400 Beginner division
1401 - 1600 Advanced division
1601 - 1800 Master division
1801 - 2000 Grand Master division
2001 + Supremme division

There doesn’t seem to be much of a point in divisions if you end up putting 60% of the FAF population into the first one. They should function as a replacement for trueskill as a barometer of skill and having such a ridiculously high margin of your population in a single division sort of ruins the progression feeling that a division system is meant to achieve.

- table show division and points depend on division 1000 / 400 / 200
- every match divides 32 point based on teams proportion
-- beginer division vs beginer division divide 64 point instead (for faster corection), if is at least one player from different division it keeps 32
- for jump to higher division player must acumulate 200 / 400 / 1000 point (depent on division) and then won 3 from 4 next match
- for fall to down division player need reach points that is below 0 and automaticly fall down
-- on time that player reach border poins for promotion, table dont show points but 4 circle instead, that is green for wictory, red for lose empty for games not played yet.
-- points are still accumulate but are hiden for player while he get them together after played all 4 (potentially 2 lose) games.
- when player is promoted for division he will get "free" +32 points -> for higer stability of divisions, this mean that when someone is promoted he will get 3x (on average) 16 points + 32 = average 80 point in higer division, so he is cca in middle where can lose games and still not fall back so easily. Same if player dont succed he lose poins for losing 2 games, and will need to won some point to get back in graduation mod.

Not really sure what is being said here but it sounds like you potentially gain a max of 32 points a game? And you might need 1000 points to rank up? That’s 32 wins in a row at higher ratings. 64 games if you assume 0 point loss if you do lose and a 50% win rate (which should be the expected outcome in any trueskill system). I’ve got no idea how many hundreds of games you expect people to play in order to rank up in the division because you didn’t exactly expand on the point loss mechanic, but I think it’s safe to say these numbers would lead to divisions rarely changing until the next season reset. If that wasn’t enough you also then want people to win 3/4 games after reaching those points TO rank up??? This is pretty counterproductive with trueskill and might lead to people getting super demotivated as the system indirectly punishes them for getting good by increasing trueskill without providing a way for their division to match their new skill level.

- there is no posibility to get you own team (there are custom games for that), so all ally/enemy are random

That isn’t how tmm is going to work. Premade teams will be a feature.

- every year ladder rating will be reseted, and then open new season where all players start again from 1200 (ladder points) what is in middle of beginner division. New season start week after 16. February what is realse date of original game for celebrating this great history day.

That’s bad. More data is good for trueskill. If you try to hard reset everyone’s trueskill rating you destroy the data that took years to build up on player performance capabilities. One of the major boons for a division system is that it ALLOWS you to reset artificial points to reset leaderboards without directly destroying trueskill data and making games imbalanced for players at the reset.

- all players in game are anonymous, he/she can write who he/she is in chat, but game will show that only when game end. Instead of name is player fraction f.e.: Aeon - Master division vs UEF Master division (this prevent copy strategy agains conrete palyers gamestyle - its ladder not custom game/tournament)

Not seeing the gain here from implementing this idea. It’s kind of trying to solve a problem that isn’t a problem.

- oponents are picked from +- 1 division

Game quality should be based on trueskill, not divisions. There’s no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Trueskill, when you utilize it in a controlled environment, is a perfectly acceptable balancing tool for FAF. It isn’t a good way for player’s to measure their progress nor is it a good thing to show people as then they start trying to max it out like a high score when it’s not untended to be seen that way.

-- there is option to get first posible game, that dont care about balance

?????

- ladder games affect custom games trueskill rating, but ladder games match are not affected by custom true skill rating, only what matter is ladder points/division

Might be possible might not. Has some issues that need to be looked at with regards to certain potential scenarios.

- ladder table is not dividied its only one for all ladder formats, but show % percentage of points that get from solo/duo/team formats

Disagree. Ladder and teamgames should always be divided.

- ladder table show "achievments" as higest movement for last 7/30/90 days, defeat higer player differences, there is place for creativity
- player color in FAF chat is same as is color of him curent division[/spoiler]

Can be nice, not a necessity right now though.

next week start new season, all player start again with 1200 point (200) in begginer division.[/spoiler]

Again this punishes people that improve as year after year their trueskill gets higher and they have a harder time getting out of the division while Joe the 300 with 3 games breezes through in comparison. Reseting trueskill along with the divisionis an even sillier solution as it’s destroying accurate data for the sake of starting over. There’s just no reason to do that with trueskill except to break another system to hopefully fix the original broken system.

With regards to the tournaments we’ve basically GOT an annual 1v1 championship hosted by LotS. I’m unsure of how far I’d like to push tournaments with matchmaker/potential divisions as I want to make sure I actually have those tools in my toolkit before planning out systems on top of them.

[Ithilis_Quo]

I'm not going to seriously compete in the game unless I can make serious money by doing so. I'm also not sure if serious competition is beneficial or what FAF needs. Why do you think serious competition is needed?

Then play custom games as you play now, this is not something that it affect it, its upgrade of faf comunity, that already and last 10 years didnt wok. You will never won real money in game/sport that is not realy competetive, becasue competition make it interesting to watch and strugle to achieve something.

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FtXComander,
I think you not fully understand the concept, while it it not new rating system thats gona replace trueskill. Its a point system, that act as primitive elo, but this affect only ladder games not customs and (even this games should be balanced by trueskill). But still its a point system, player dont see they rating, but see how many points have and on which division are. And game is balanced with way there it pick oponents from same division, if not there +- 1 division. Get fast game is more as get it balanced, unless we dont have tousands active players.

Spoiler: show

Alredy is ladder death, before it was jast 1 point for win 0.5 draw 0 for lose, and got upper but never fall down. What was obviosly bad and boring on the end. More games lead to higer position, even when player was bad. Trueskill ladder is boring as well, as you know that on top will be all time same players and you dont know for what you compte unless you start be genius player, what took years. Still itss much better as ZePilot system, but its less atractive. Trueskill is not something that should be visible and used for competition its only balance mechanism, its too complicate math to easy understand, and numbers use for competition table.

Every division is kind of small battle ground where can compte against cca same skilled player and have own "comunity-division" events. Even noob can compte in ladder for places, while when its jast one table its interesting only for peak of best players -> that should be supremme division. Thats why moving from division should not be easy, and won 3 from 5 games is not imposible.

Unbalanced of some games, especialy on start make diferent game feeling depent on time in season, that is what make natural game events. Chill on start and competetive before end.
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There is option that it can work together - oponents will be balanced by trueskill, but in ladder table show points that are calculate separatly and show only poins. Ladder will not be all time best player, but players who compte most in ladder and still cant be bad, best player will come from final tournamets.

There doesn’t seem to be much of a point in divisions if you end up putting 60% of the FAF population into the first one.

90% of fotball players that play it competetive are in lovest division, where play somewhere in vilages.. We have very small competetive comunity, so on down its crazy unacurate and isnt big diferences betwen someone with 500 rating and 800 rating, while are big diferences betwen 1600 and 1900. Ill found division more competetive as only number in ladder that end up in 5490 and you are already in 3598.

Not really sure what is being said here but it sounds like you potentially gain a max of 32 points a game? And you might need 1000 points to rank up? That’s 32 wins in a row at higher ratings. 64 games if you assume 0 point loss if you do lose and a 50% win rate (which should be the expected outcome in any trueskill system). I’ve got no idea how many hundreds of games you expect people to play in order to rank up

maximum you got 32, where oponent then got -32. In same balanced oponent you got 16, while he lose 16. when season start you have 1200, you need won 200 point to rank up, whats 6-7 average victories in raw and then 3 from 5. While this division will be most unbalanced, because all new players start here (thats why name beginner divison) i think moving there should be pretty fast. by 60% win probability it should took like 20-25 games to rank up.

in next advanced divisions you start in cca 80 points from 200, so you need get 120 points whats 7-8 victories in raw, and then win 3 from 5. Or by 60% win ratio its cca 40games to rank up.

That’s bad. More data is good for trueskill. If you try to hard reset everyone’s trueskill rating you destroy the data that took years to build up on player performance capabilities. One of the major boons for a division system is that it ALLOWS you to reset artificial points to reset leaderboards without directly destroying trueskill data and making games imbalanced for players at the reset.

Thats actulay what i suggest, reset artifical number in leaderboard not true skill.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
- all players in game are anonymous, he/she can write who he/she is in chat, but game will show that only when game end. Instead of name is player fraction f.e.: Aeon - Master division vs UEF Master division (this prevent copy strategy agains conrete palyers gamestyle - its ladder not custom game/tournament)

Not seeing the gain here from implementing this idea. It’s kind of trying to solve a problem that isn’t a problem.

It is a problem, even when most of comunity didnt see that. You play differently when you play against XY and diferently when you play against ZH. Its very easy to do and it have some gain on games that will be harder predicted from start how to play it.

Game quality should be based on trueskill, not divisions. There’s no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Trueskill, when you utilize it in a controlled environment, is a perfectly acceptable balancing tool for FAF. It isn’t a good way for player’s to measure their progress nor is it a good thing to show people as then they start trying to max it out like a high score when it’s not untended to be seen that way.

hmm ill agree, balance by true skill should be better for balance games as ill previously suggest balance it by division only. It should work together. oponent will be picked by true skill but leaderboard show points. That will somehow corelate, but it will not need be perfectly accurate its not so important while get +- fair oponent.

[FtXCommando]

Every division is kind of small battle ground where can compte against cca same skilled player and have own "comunity-division" events. Even noob can compte in ladder for places, while when its jast one table its interesting only for peak of best players -> that should be supremme division. Thats why moving from division should not be easy, and won 3 from 5 games is not imposible.

Unbalanced of some games, especialy on start make diferent game feeling depent on time in season, that is what make natural game events. Chill on start and competetive before end.
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There is option that it can work together - oponents will be balanced by trueskill, but in ladder table show points that are calculate separatly and show only poins. Ladder will not be all time best player, but players who compte most in ladder and still cant be bad, best player will come from final tournamets.

I completely disagree on low rated players competing for placements within their division. That is, again, providing a disincentive to actually play games to improve as why would i want to be Division 2 Rank 3718 when I could be sexy Division 3 Rank 1? The only people that should care about their individual placement within a division are those at the very top that would be competing for special avatars to mark them as “the best” or “part of top 10” or whatever category is decided upon.

I also totally disagree with making moving between divisions difficult as now you’re making balance impossible as seasons go on. It also, again, makes zero mathematical sense because you’re placing the 1800+ group where 30 games might happen a day max with the 800+ group that sees 150 games a day. Maybe by month 7 you’ll have some 2k rated player actually reach his projected division assuming he can still find motivated partners that want to play in a system that rewards them with a Beginner title at 1800+ rating.

We both agree that trueskill is not a good value to expose to players. We both want to hide it. A division system would become the ‘new public value’ for your capability. Except you made it difficult to move between divisions and now you could have people well beyond their division’s capability represented by their low rated division symbol. Now people will see no real reason to trust this symbol because they see someone like Blackheart start a season in the beginner division and laugh at the entire idea. At least I would.

We should not be seeing imbalanced games at any point in the season, ever. That’s exactly what we should be trying to avoid while providing an incentive for people to stay active within the game. If you have a ‘casual, relaxed, imbalanced’ initial season where noobstomping is a regular occurrence, well, guess who is likely to avoid playing ladder more than they already do? If you make it impossible for the 2ks to noobstomp by basing game quality on trueskill, we’ll get to enjoy our new top leaderboards of 1500 rated pros because the 2ks aren’t fishing out enough games to beat thru all the divisions they need.

90% of fotball players that play it competetive are in lovest division, where play somewhere in vilages.. We have very small competetive comunity, so on down its crazy unacurate and isnt big diferences betwen someone with 500 rating and 800 rating, while are big diferences betwen 1600 and 1900. Ill found division more competetive as only number in ladder that end up in 5490 and you are already in 3598.

We should be moving away from showing people their trueskill value. If you group 60% of the community into one division, the value of the division is nonexistent and you can never use it as a metric to replace trueskill as we have it now. And yes, I do wish to have divisions replace trueskill in custom games as well.

maximum you got 32, where oponent then got -32. In same balanced oponent you got 16, while he lose 16. when season start you have 1200, you need won 200 point to rank up, whats 6-7 average victories in raw and then 3 from 5. While this division will be most unbalanced, because all new players start here (thats why name beginner divison) i think moving there should be pretty fast. by 60% win probability it should took like 20-25 games to rank up.

in next advanced divisions you start in cca 80 points from 200, so you need get 120 points whats 7-8 victories in raw, and then win 3 from 5. Or by 60% win ratio its cca 40games to rank up.

This just sounds like FAF sanctioned smurfing for no reason. Hard resets are a horrifying plan for player retention both on the low rated front which will be paranoid of their next enemy always being 1500+ rating above them and on the competitive front because game quantities are not distributed equally amongst rating brackets. Why would I bust my ass as 2300 Blodir facing Petric and beating him 9-10 times just to get the honor of moving from Beginner to Ur-Ok-I-Guess division? It’s just a silly situation.

It is a problem, even when most of comunity didnt see that. You play differently when you play against XY and diferently when you play against ZH. Its very easy to do and it have some gain on games that will be harder predicted from start how to play it.

No it isn’t. If people abuse the fact you never make LABS or you always t3 land rush, well, maybe try branching out in your playstyle? Why would I ever want to make it easier for you to keep regurgitating the same corsair bo? This is really an absolutely nonexistent problem and the only people that complain about it are people upset that they need to adapt to a metagame surrounding them.

[Ithilis_Quo]

That is, again, providing a disincentive to actually play games to improve as why would i want to be Division 2 Rank 3718 when I could be sexy Division 3 Rank 1?

Because you will be rank 427. in "Advanced division" with stronger color in chat, instead of 1. in "Begginer division", same question for me, whats a point of compte when you know you are all the time somewhere betwen 4575-2432. None ever care about that. Lot of good very competetive players leave and play some others games that not even like as faf jast because there is not real competition. When all funny parth will be for best 10 then you cut not 60% of population that is in noob division (what i not even cut off) and have 1000 point scenary but 99,9999%. Division name try to describe skill player inside in midle to end of season, so it should cca be correct.

I also totally disagree with making moving between divisions difficult as now you’re making balance impossible as seasons go on.

its more psychological stepp wining 3 games from 5, (or even 4) is not that hard. Its 60% win ration that must act in right moment, what make some stronger feeling that its goint about something, and player can have tuff time because game enviroment. It can be more stressfull as casual game, it should be frustrating and rewarding. Thats main point of division and stepping on ladder.

as now you’re making balance impossible as seasons go on

There are two posibilities on this dilema, i like more
-first one that i describe on start, (game balanced by division +-1) because it will create more natural events but
-second one (game balanced only by trueskill, that work hiden behind, and get points for competition feeling) is fully accesible and most of what you mention is not true on that option.

Player will get oponent by him skill, but points in ladder will be calculate depend on points of oponent, its not very simple to understand while its kind of dual system, but reason for this is make something that is competetive and keep presure for players to play more games to move somewhere.
Very strong positive is seasoning of game, where enviroment is different on start and on end, you will all time get balanced oponent, but while he join on ladder on end, he will probbaly not have time to climb to top for supremme division.
Whole population wil also rise by time, while upgrade to up div. is revarding with 2 free wins by point side and downgrade is not. System will get more point on how people play more games. It doesnt realy mather that even best players will be second mounth in Master division only - when are best. They have place for climb and for achvievment. And comunity have multiple option for natural events and "news" like how is league going, and "oooh looks, yestrday first player Mrs FtXCommander open Grand master division whats record for last 3 season, how he do it so early, lets watch this replay and you will understant!"

Its kind of lie, but it create something that is more interesting to watch and be parth off - and thats a whats going on.

Now people will see no real reason to trust this symbol because they see someone like Blackheart start a season in the beginner division and laugh at the entire idea. At least I would.

when he dont play ladder then of course, but i think that it will took like 2 weeks to move out, and still will have oponents by same trueskill level so will not even meet him. This will push him to play some ladder games of be target of this laught. Also someone as GalacticFear who was too long 1 by rating was like 580 in ladder, while he play only seton and not ladder, did someone laught about that? i dont think so, it will be same there.

If you group 60% of the community into one division, the value of the division is nonexistent and you can never use it as a metric to replace trueskill as we have it now. And yes, I do wish to have divisions replace trueskill in custom games as well.

There should be more division for lowerclass (801-1000 bronze, 601-800 stone 401-600 woden 201-400 donky, 0 - 200 monkey... etc, etc) its not problem at all, but whats a problem is that there is not differences on this skill level. But its a minimum to add more divisions for 0-1000 points and divide it.

Why would I bust my ass as 2300 Blodir facing Petric and beating him 9-10 times just to get the honor of moving from Beginner to Ur-Ok-I-Guess division? It’s just a silly situation.

It is but its posible to happend in every enviroment thats created. All the time there can and will be someone who will lose jast to add point/rating for somone else, there was also situation where Sidisomething was banned for forever (and still is there) for creating multiple acconts that he harvest rating from.

This is really an absolutely nonexistent problem and the only people that complain about it are people upset that they need to adapt to a metagame surrounding them.

Its not true at all, there was old galactic wars project, that work on this way, where all players have random names that was anonymized and lot of ppls like the idea that they dont even know who are facing sometime was even horibly bashed while on start act as noob but he wasnt. Im not and never was creating enviroment that is fiting me, or only my, thats not my style. There is more stress and tryharding when you dont know who you are facing and what game style to expect.

[ThomasHiatt]

I do genuinely believe systems like this are unethical and do not benefit anyone at all. They are just psychological tricks to get people to spend more time playing the game by rewarding them with some silly points, divisions, and fake rewards for increasingly large amounts of effort and time spent grinding in a video game. It is natural for people to simply play the game to have fun for a bit and then stop when it gets old, this is just an attempt to subvert that and make them addicted so they stick around longer. Nobody would benefit from having more players or existing players playing more. The devs don't make any money from having more players, the players don't gain anything of value from playing FAF and will likely just end up being disappointed eventually when they realize they wasted time on some psychological trick, and the people who currently play other games or have other hobbies won't gain anything by switching over to playing FAF instead. So do we actually want these things? Is it a problem if people quit after a year or two of playing? Do you really want the top players to stick around for their entire life playing this game rather than moving on and doing something else?

[Ithilis_Quo]

Players adicted on game, that play it dayli is wet dream of all game developers, thats what we should by traing to achieve. Because thats what make it alive. This is not casino or some drugs bar. Its game, and mostly adult players who should know that real world start somewhere out of computer screen.

[Flipper]

I'd be for anything that would mean more people playing in ladder. I am lucky most evenings to get a match. If I get multiple matches in one night, it's usually the same player over and over.

[ThomasHiatt]

If we want more people playing ladder then a system that has already been proven to work across all rating levels was the ladder weeks/months that ran in prior years. It would require very little work to run again and it would greatly increase ladder activity for their duration. As far as I can tell from the code it is only a matter of changing the start/end dates and resetting it. I find it quite strange that everyone continues to pursue more difficult and complex ideas when there is a proven successful system already available.