Team Matchmaker Info&Discussion

[FtXCommando]

No, it would be entirely blackboxed. You can balance games through optimal balance. Or you as host can try your best to gauge balance through your knowledge of players (balance quality may still exist). There would be zero feedback from the client to the system about their improvement or progress in custom games.

[keyser]

to sum up, my proposition is that we don't display any rating (either global or TMM rating) in custom.
we introduce some algorithm that i linked before, to balance the game in the lobby. (as i said this algorithm need improvement, to take into account which group want to play together)
People can still choose their spot (in opposition to the TMM) and choose the map they are going to play.
The balance quality (%) is still displayed, so host can do manual adjustement and mesure the impact on the balance quality. (but it isn't require as the algorithm should sort out the team well enough).
The algorithm use the global rating to balance the team. So the global rating exist, and is being used, but isn't displayed.

The goal of hiding global rating is to give an incentive to people to play TMM. Rating is important for people, so this will turn custom games into games that are more casual. But we still have a global rating hided, so people playing only 1 map will be able to play in balanced games.

This is a middle ground, between removing the global rating (big incentive for TMM, but hardly balanced custom games) and keeping a global rating and displaying it ("balanced" custom games, but competition between the global rating and the TMM rating).

[Mach]

The goal of hiding global rating is to give an incentive to people to play TMM. Rating is important for people, so this will turn custom games into games that are more casual.

wrong reasons again. rating isnt a "reward", we need it so we can balance custom games. everyone knows game quality % means nothing if one of slots is completely outmatches other, I dont want a 1000 (team 1) to play vs 2000 (team 2) on front and 1800 (team 2) vs 800 (team 1) on navy, just because I cant see which is which, yet it shows equally balanced as 2000 v 1800 and 800 v 1000 according to game quality.

you have to find another way to "incentivize" people to play tmm other than by wrecking custom games into casual roflstomps every match just because you consider them such. we dont. when we play custom games we want some degree of balance in them. we arent lesser than you because we play them and so not worthy of a rating system.

instead of forcing people to play what you consider a test of skill, you have to play around maps they want to play, and effect their rating accordingly, yes its more difficult than simply having everyone play what you need them to so rating system can work properly without changes, but at a cost of 90% of games that are being played being unbalancable

It would be fine if you hid global rating outside of custom lobbies so "people cant brag about it" or whatever your problem with it is, but we need it visible in custom lobbies to be able to balance, game quality % is meaningless for it and any auto balance system is always going to have problems (ex. optimal balance always stacks both setons navies, and sometimes other slots as well) tmm rating is meaningless for it again for multiple reasons (if people are way better on specific map and for people that dont play tmm)

[Farmsletje]

wrong reasons again. rating isnt a "reward"

Yes it is? In both faf and other games there are tons of people that want to get as high of a ranking as possible.

[keyser]

we arent lesser than you because we play them and so not worthy of a rating system.

you shouldn't do strawman, it makes you argumentation feels really bad afterward

rating isnt a "reward"

yes it shouldn't but it is. That's why we also try to change how the rating will be displayed for TMM/ladder but that's some other discussion.

90% of games that are being played being unbalancable

Not sure what's up with you putting up random numbers, anyway hopefully more than 10% of games will be in TMM. Also most of the time people play gap & co., because there is nothing else in comparison to launch a game fast. TMM will most likely resolve this issue, but for this to happen we need most of the people to transition to TMM.

everyone knows game quality % means nothing if one of slots is completely outmatches

Also it should also be possible in the algorithm to implement a mirror function to put similarly rated players in front of each others. We have already a mirror option for launching the game, i'm not sure if it works well though.

[Azraeel]

Mach, Rating is most definitely a reward for MOST PLAYERS.

[UnorthodoxBox]

Also most of the time people play gap & co., because there is nothing else in comparison to launch a game fast.

That is a good point actually that most people probably won't think of because it is not immediately obvious. Multiple people when asked why they play gap all the time have said it is because it is the only way to quickly start a game they are "allowed to play" and do not get kicked for rating/gamecount mis-match.

[Mach]

TMM will most likely resolve this issue, but for this to happen we need most of the people to transition to TMM.

herein lies the problem, you need people to switch to tmm or it wont work, so you break their existing games so they have no choice but to play "new thing" that they didnt know existed until now, unable to play what "they were already playing", not a great way to introduce something new

the "random numbers" were custom lobbies matches vs not-custom lobbies matches (being ladder only atm), I think we all know that custom games dominate faf atm in % of players that play them, idk what amount of players are going to play tmm (preferably enough for it to work), but very likely most of people will play custom games anyway, you can replace 90% with "most of" if you dont like numbers

Also it should also be possible in the algorithm to implement a mirror function to put similarly rated players in front of each others. We have already a mirror option for launching the game, i'm not sure if it works well though.

mirror option doesnt always work, I already gave example on setons both navies getting stacked when using it, unless you want to manually write mirror code for every map so it balances it properly

another problem with auto balance is when there arent similar rated players on a map, and random balance puts unbalanced air slots vs each other, which means game is over as soon as better air gets t3 and goes strats while other air is building t1 bombers and land, hosts know air slot is important and can destroy the game if unbalanced and always put balanced airs vs each other so this doesnt happen, do you intend to put this in code as well (different for each map that has dedicated air slot), and this isnt only for air slots, many other slots have different importance on a map and depending on how good player that is on that slot is, it can ruin the match (like a pro in joe lobby on setons rock)

and all this because hosts couldnt balance on their own

rating being a reward for players is a problem in general (that they think it is a reward), and reason for mentioning it is that it shouldnt have anything to do with whether global rating exists, esp. not to point where you want to "punish them" for getting an integer to specific value by playing same map over and over, by removing it (idc about my rating inb4 insults and "if youre not at least 2000 you have no say in anything")

the reasons for whether global rating is removed or not should be only for balancing games and nothing more, including getting people to play tmm, which should be done different way than "you have to because you cant play custom anymore"