Team Matchmaker Info&Discussion

[Mach]

well, what if someone simply doesnt play tmm, and only customs? or plays it few times and stops, leaving it inaccurate as they become better from playing customs only. how is their skill going to be measured for custom games? I suggest you simply show both global and tmm rating in custom lobbies instead

[FtXCommando]

If you want a balanced custom game, you play a custom game with some artificial title restriction based on the matchmaker rating. Otherwise, you can allow in people and balance them off of what you "think" is their rating. Global rating is already inaccurate, why does it matter if people now have an inaccurate rating because they do not play the matchmaker?

The solution is a change of culture in custom games, which is luckily what this change both necessitates and initiates. If you want to live in the oxymoron of balanced custom games, then you adjust it based on a rating with some semblance of integrity.

Showing both ratings is certainly not going to be an option because it presents an additional complication for the host in judging "balance quality" as well as new players (which can also be hosts) when they join these games.

[Mach]

so you have same problem again - what if someone doesnt play tmm and only customs? what does that mean for custom lobbies that person joins if global rating doesnt exist?

[FtXCommando]

It means they play FAF in casual, relaxed games. So they get no rating. If you want to play competitive, well balanced games you are directed to the matchmaker. There is no problem because the delusion of global rating is demolished.

If people in custom games wish to keep track of who they consider "good" themselves, they are free to do so. It would be a more accurate gauge of capability of players than what we currently have.

[speed2]

well, what if someone simply doesnt play tmm, and only customs? or plays it few times and stops, leaving it inaccurate as they become better from playing customs only. how is their skill going to be measured for custom games? I suggest you simply show both global and tmm rating in custom lobbies instead

You could say the same about sim mods currently, but thats not a reason to rate them. If TMM is a thing, custom games should be all unrated.

[Mach]

the reason sim mods are unranked is because they change the game simulation itself, *it isnt the same game when its with sim mods*, *it is* when its simply custom map/teams, tmm simply picks random map and teams instead (like team ladder)

everything you base this working on implies everyone will play tmm consistently, because if they dont, there is no rating (if you remove global) that can be used in custom lobby to know how good they are (however inaccurate global may be, its better than no rating at all)

if some people want to play customs only (like gappers will do), how are they going to balance teams without rating? everyone in their lobby from suzuji to new player that just joined faf and never played supcom are gonna be shown as same skill if they dont play tmm. rating isnt some "reward" for players (although a lot of players considering it such for some reason), its used to balance the game, are we supposed to simply memorize how good everyone is (aka do the job that global rating is for) when balancing custom games with people that dont play tmm?

[H-master]

As a thought experiment for those with nothing to do due to the virus:

Assuming a matchmaker with 2v2 and 4v4 exists, can you make a case for why global rating should not just be removed? Let's say that your "global rating" that people see in custom games will just be your matchmaker rating and that the 2v2 and 4v4 matchmaker use the same rating. These custom games would have no influence on your rating.

And yes, this is something I'm considering so if you value global for whatever reason please explain it to me.

I would certainly prefer to have both ratings available in custom games. Global rating isn't as bad in my experience, as you make it out to be. Everybody knows it's not a complete ressemblence of the skill of the player, but it has been very usefull in balancing games for the past 10 or more years. It's also seen as a reward for players to play for. It's in my opinion not a good idea to take that incentive away. Perhaps they want to play different maps than that are available in the matchmaker pool, but now they aren't challenged anymore to give their best. I expect a lot of control-k's when you take away rating for custom games.

If the teammatchmaker becomes popular that will be a more accurate rating, but when a large chunck of the playerbase still plays custom, I would love to see that information in lobby.

Showing both ratings is certainly not going to be an option because it presents an additional complication for the host in judging "balance quality" as well as new players (which can also be hosts) when they join these games.

It's the other way around. It's more complicated to get a well balanced game with showing less information, rather than with more information.

[FtXCommando]

I would certainly prefer to have both ratings available in custom games. Global rating isn't as bad in my experience, as you make it out to be. Everybody knows it's not a complete ressemblence of the skill of the player, but it has been very usefull in balancing games for the past 10 or more years. It's also seen as a reward for players to play for. It's in my opinion not a good idea to take that incentive away. Perhaps they want to play different maps than that are available in the matchmaker pool, but now they aren't challenged anymore to give their best. I expect a lot of control-k's when you take away rating for custom games.

If the teammatchmaker becomes popular that will be a more accurate rating, but when a large chunck of the playerbase still plays custom, I would love to see that information in lobby.

Over half of the current top 10 in global would immediately fall flat on their face in any game against a generic player 500 global rating worse if I picked a map from the "featured map list" our client shows. This is not useful for balancing games. This is not useful as a barometer for improvement. This is not useful as a list of players to model yourself after competitively.

It is useful as a list of the various clever methodologies in abusing a flawed implementation of trueskill, though. Playing singular maps, abusing high sigma new players, abusing high variance games, refusing to play players at a similar level, playing with preset teams, putting people on the enemy team to throw, etc.

There is no incentive to improve in global because global means nothing. I've seen 1600s that weren't aware that rocks/trees were reclaimable. I've seen 1200s beat 1800s because they have a build on a map and the 1800 can only play a singular slot on a singular map. You can't even trust the "serious" players and their rating because half the time they blatantly explain they have no reason to care about global (so who is out there that cares about improving it) so they lose against players because they feel no need to put effort into games. There is no quality in global and the only reason for its usage currently is the absence of anything better. Just because we have utilized a broken faucet for 10 years and managed to trudge on does not mean we keep the broken faucet as an option while a better faucet was installed in the next room.

NOTE: This lack of an incentive to improve because you see trash at the same rating as you at every metric of the system is something that has been talked about for years (see petric's competitive scene dying thread). It isn't me making a mountain of a molehill.

Global games are not being taken away. You can freely play whatever map you wish. You can use matchmaker rating as an ACCURATE barometer for the capability of a player assuming you want a "serious" "casual" match. You can even keep track of people yourself. If someone isn't "serious" enough to play matchmaker, they aren't going to be worth taking into account in your "serious" custom game anyway.

Ctrl+k'ing to ruin a game is still bannable. You are able to report people for ruining the game. What is the population segment that will increase in ctrl+k's?

It's the other way around. It's more complicated to get a well balanced game with showing less information, rather than with more information.

That isn't what I'm talking about. More information does not denote a better user experience. You host a lobby on Isis as some new player and are presented with 4 variables. Global Rating, Matchmaker Rating, Global Games, Matchmaker Games. You have a balance meter that seems to take into account one of these variables? 2 of these variables? All of them? Who knows, not him. You also then will have a rating change influence 1 rating but not the other, confusing you again. You will then have to navigate host titles like 1000G/800M 50+Games (G).

You aren't getting a well balanced game with any of the information global provides so I don't factor the information it provides as beneficial in any way when a matchmaker rating exists. I could literally get the same value by looking at the last 20 games of the dude in the replay vault.

[Mach]

first to show irrelevant and incorrect stuff:

whether or not players play specific maps because they want to or because no other maps are hosted is irrelevant, with tmm they will be able to play random maps if they want to, but this does not demand mutual exclusion of global rating existing, however inaccurate it may be.

"if you want casual games play custom, if you want balanced then play tmm", casual and balanced are not mutually exclusive either

the rating being a "reward" that players play for is another irrelevant thing, and rating's primary function is being used to balance games, you dont need to "punish map one trickers" by removing everyones global rating

"global is useless for balance", well maybe if your hosts suck or you get a random gapper that decided to play another teamgame map suddenly (which they will be able to do with tmm without messing up a custom game), in my lobbies most of the time every slot except maybe one is balanced (and thats more because there werent enough similar rated people, such as random yudi or commanderA joining a mostly 1200 rated all welcome and hosts not wanting to kick them, or a "played a lot on steam" smurf)

you can as easily say tmm rating is useless for balance vs map one trickers that are way better at that map than someone of same tmm rating

"showing both tmm and global is unacceptable because hosts are incapable of handling 2 numbers at once" - they can use tmm to tell how good player is in general, and global to see how good they are on their most played map, would be nice if you could see most played map of a player from inside lobby or/and their last 10 played maps

some problems with tmm only rating:
this whole thing "working" for custom games depends on people playing tmm consistently, something they didnt have to do until now, this introduces a negative thing for people, as they now MUST play <something you want> (which may or may not be what THEY want) or they will have no rating to be able to play <something they want> (yes they can play it technically like you keep saying but with no way of balancing custom games if they dont play tmm as well or use "3rd party rating").

to show the main problems of tmm only rating thru what a player would see if it happened:

people join faf to play for fun mostly, your competitive players sure play to git gud, but most of players simply play balanced teamgames on maps they want to play on, balancing teams based on global rating, and now suddenly that rating is gone, impossible to balance custom games unless they go play on random maps with random teams (tmm) and get rekt over and over until they get to -500 tmm rating because they never played (or wanted to possibly) another map

they now have enough games on tmm to join a map they want to play after they had it with losses in tmm, so they join their map lobby vs another player that has -500 tmm rating (but this player is really new and never played this map or supcom itself unlike them who played it 100s of times), this unbalanced match ends in new -500 player getting rekt by -500 map mainer, and neither of their ratings change, -500 map mainer on -500, and real -500 new player -500 (because only tmm effects rating), this shows another problem which is people playing customs only and not getting their "skill" rating updated because it isnt tmm

tmm system simply shows the real problem of trueskill being the same on every map (or the fact that maps have so large effect on how good a player plays), and the thing you do by tmm is that maps are no longer controllable by players, and are random, so you get the average rating of a player per map because they simply cant pick a map to play on as it is randomly picked for them, giving their rating over multiple maps as a mean, when they might be way better on specific map (a pro gapper that is noob on tmm will wreck on gaps whether his rating is -500 tmm or 2000 global (from playing gaps only), and by removing global how will anyone know he is pro gapper unless they played him already?)

so, sorry, but global rating removal isnt going to save faf like you want it to, and tmm will only work for itself exclusively, stopping to work the second maps or teams are controllable by players and "idc about your custom games so we removed global rating, play tmm if you want balance, we dont give a damn about your gap (most of playerbase)" isnt gonna go well with a lot of people, dont consider currently no negative feedback from rest of faf as confirmation it is good (or echo chamber of faf pros saying it is greatest thing on faf since removal of zep), most of people wont say anything until after you introduce it (pretty sure 90% of faf doesnt know about it at all) and then you will have people raging or leaving as they unexpectedly cant play what they join faf to play

I myself will play tmm and dont have a problem with it but I will play custom games as well, so I know what effect global rating removal may have on those custom games

[Azraeel]

so, sorry, but global rating removal isnt going to save faf like you want it to, and tmm will only work for itself exclusively, stopping to work the second maps or teams are controllable by players and "idc about your custom games so we removed global rating, play tmm if you want balance, we dont give a damn about your gap (most of playerbase)" isnt gonna go well with a lot of people, dont consider currently no negative feedback from rest of faf as confirmation it is good (or echo chamber of faf pros saying it is greatest thing on faf since removal of zep), most of people wont say anything until after you introduce it (pretty sure 90% of faf doesnt know about it at all) and then you will have people raging or leaving as they unexpectedly cant play what they join faf to play

I myself will play tmm and dont have a problem with it but I will play custom games as well, so I know what effect global rating removal may have on those custom games

Well, Good Job not proving any point in this whole essay. This is so biased towards yourself that you should be ashamed. First off, you have proven no point this entire essay you writen.... Your entire arguement is one sentence, "What if they dont wanna play TMM." Well, they dont wanna play, then they dont wanna play balanced games simple. Stop asking that question like its valid... Its been answered like 15 times. TMM Is all about competitive balance games on different maps. Like who cares about all those Dual Gappers, Setoners, and Crater Noobs. I can 100% say i don't care about what they think. Oh hell, yea 90% of faf doesnt know forums exist or that we have councils or who streams or who owns faf or ANYTHING. THEY JUST PLAY THE GAME, THEY DONT CARE ABOUT FAF POLITICS. If they dont play TMM then they dont wanna play competitive balanced games. They just the end of it, stop arguing, and stop asking the same question. Your just denying the facts, that the professionals know like Jagged and FTX. They aint just saying shit without proof, experience, stats, or etc. Your entire arguement is just WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF. Well, What if we wait to see what happens....

Chad

If these dual gappers and crater noobs wanna leave cuz they wanna play on boosted rating then fine by me. They can leave, FTX and devs dont serve them lmao. This is a community ran project and everyone donates their time to help this project grew and expand. FAF is known as a competitive community client for Supreme Commander adding TMM wont change that outlook or inlook into faf, actually it makes us look more professional. These Dual Gappers and Crater Noobs dont contribute anything to this community but play count. Not to mention, we were doing good at 1k online peak so if they leave not FTX's problem.

In-fact, sounds like your arguing because u personally wanna keep it. From the writing in your essay. You can wanna keep it so you can only play Setons with your already somehow boosted 1100 rating, because u can't play anything else. So really this entire essay is for yourself and not the community. So really your just being fake pretending like your speaking for the community when really your just speaking for yourself, because all u do is play setons front on a boosted 1100 rating.