How is simspeed lag in 2018?

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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 17 Jun 2018, 14:45

E8400-CV wrote:Well, share the info...


I already have. Empty already has. Most of them are overclocked, semi recent Intel Quadcores. They are all about the same. And if you don't believe it... try to doing your own research.


E8400-CV wrote:I never said anything about clockspeed, but single threaded performance.


Clockspeed is the only relevant metric here since the IPC of Ryzen and Intel is like 3% appart. -> Clockspeed is the only thing setting Ryzen' and Intels single threaded performance appart so yea. Stop trying to talk yourself out of stupid arguments like that, it clearly does not work, and try to think a bit out of the box.

E8400-CV wrote:
Different architectures do different things. Want a Pentium 4 at 4 GHz? Nope.



Everyone knows this. That's even the exact thing I said a couple posts before.


E8400-CV wrote:So what were the actual counterparts...?


Are you serious right now

E8400-CV wrote:Also... you do know the bench number can be manually replaced?


Everyone here knows this.

E8400-CV wrote:That's part of the problem.


So you are pretty much claming you don't trust those CPU scores cause they might be rigged.

Again: Those guys know each other. They have played together so often already, that they just know who is going to be the bottleneck. The scores and the INGAME stats aren't rigged.
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby E8400-CV » 17 Jun 2018, 21:36

IceDreamer wrote:It will depend on load type. I've been doing some performance testing again the past three days and I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion as others: The simspeed is dipping into negative territory despite none of my CPU cores being over 40%, and this is on a laptop (i7 4720HQ @ 3.6). The only way I can spike the CPU load to 100% is to select a few hundred units with range rings turned on, which I know to need a huge amount of math calculations. The rest of the time though, it's slowing down despite very little core load. At the same time, RAM and cache use are very high indeed.

Now I'd need some expert input, but IF it is true that metatable lookups and big table copy or move operations use memory and cache a lot, this would be a big reason for the observed low core use, because LUA lookups are really, really slow, and yet the FA LUA is doing a massive, massive number of LUA lookups. I shall know more in due course.

Also, I fully plan to purchase a 2700X, and I will at that time also have access to an 8700K. I'll be able to publish comprehensive relative speeds between those two, and this 4720HQ.


Looking forward to it. :)

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:[...blablabla]

So you are pretty much claming you don't trust those CPU scores cause they might be rigged.

Again: Those guys know each other. They have played together so often already, that they just know who is going to be the bottleneck. The scores and the INGAME stats aren't rigged.


I said I don't know. I don't know you, I don't remember any of the nicks on the screenshot either. I do know however that this irritating attitude of fighting every word and lying about Ryzen is omni present in online forums so I've got to know more before I assume something as fact about Ryzen's FAF performance.

The theory about cache size and memory sounds plausible though.
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby SpoCk0nd0pe » 17 Jun 2018, 23:23

E8400-CV wrote:Sounds interesting, but if so; at what point does it become a memory limit? Because the -U CPU's don't cut RAM frequency when they decrease core clocks. At least, not that I know.


U processors usually come with much smaller L3 caches too. And even if FAF produces many cache misses, single thread performance still helps because it lowers the time between idles.

This is not only about cache size and latency btw, branch prediction is another important factor.

IceDreamer wrote:Also, I fully plan to purchase a 2700X, and I will at that time also have access to an 8700K. I'll be able to publish comprehensive relative speeds between those two, and this 4720HQ.


This will be very interesting! You don't happen to also like Stellaris and Dwarf Fortress? :D

I'm planning to buy a 2700X too, but GPU prices are too high at the moment. Do you happen to know if the Taichi is still the best AM4 board?
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby E8400-CV » 18 Jun 2018, 00:29

Forget GPU prices... look at RAM prices. :shock:
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby ZLO_RD » 18 Jun 2018, 00:43

So ram speed is important? maybe i have a hope now? :D :D :D
(i have not tested anything with this RAM speed cause it is not stable, sadly, but maybe i will find a solution on how to OC my ram properly)
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby IceDreamer » 18 Jun 2018, 00:59

RAM speed may be important. We just don't have the data yet. The variables in play are:

Architecture IPC
Clock speed
RAM latency
RAM bandwidth
Cache latency
Cache bandwidth

For known quanities we have that 8th generation Intel is ~3-5% higher than Ryzen 2. We also know that top end Intel has a clockspeed achievable on water for most chips, with a delid, of 5GHz, which is ~17% faster than Ryzen 2.

We also know that Cache latency and bandwidth on Ryzen 2 are extremely good, and that both core AND cache performance on Ryzen improve with RAM speeds. We know that if you take a 2700X and an 8700K, both overclocked, and then benchmark at 2400MHz RAM and again at 3400MHz RAM with tightened timings (Beyond this, gains are minimal for both), both chips gain in game performance but the 2700X gains more, closing the gap.

What we don't know is how much FA's game code depends on which one of those 6 levers, nor which one, or more than one, are acting as a bottleneck.

To be clear I'm not yet crowning a winner. But the more I learn, the more there is a very real possibility that the 2700X could be legitimately better for FA than almost any Intel chip. I am 100% sure that unless all other players in a game have OCed 6th generation Intel or newer, a 2700X will not be the slowest chip there.
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 18 Jun 2018, 11:15

I currently got a 1600 available.
When we are doing our respective tests, can we all agree on using the same replay? Would make the results comparable.
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby Katharsas » 18 Jun 2018, 13:29

IceDreamer wrote:It will depend on load type. I've been doing some performance testing again the past three days and I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion as others: The simspeed is dipping into negative territory despite none of my CPU cores being over 40%, and this is on a laptop (i7 4720HQ @ 3.6). The only way I can spike the CPU load to 100% is to select a few hundred units with range rings turned on, which I know to need a huge amount of math calculations. The rest of the time though, it's slowing down despite very little core load. At the same time, RAM and cache use are very high indeed.

Now I'd need some expert input, but IF it is true that metatable lookups and big table copy or move operations use memory and cache a lot, this would be a big reason for the observed low core use, because LUA lookups are really, really slow, and yet the FA LUA is doing a massive, massive number of LUA lookups. I shall know more in due course.

Also, I fully plan to purchase a 2700X, and I will at that time also have access to an 8700K. I'll be able to publish comprehensive relative speeds between those two, and this 4720HQ.


There were some people speaking about this here:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15908#p160934

When i come home, i will test my systems. I got an older Socket 2011 System lying around (Quad-Channel Memory, nice Cache) which i could do the test with.
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby Endranii » 18 Jun 2018, 18:52

Well I guess we can go with this seton replay. 35 minutes long pro level shitton of units so should make for proper yet not so time consuming test(this aint testing stability with prime :D)

I I will run most likely 4 sets of benchmarks(3 runs per setting) with CPU locked at 3.8ghz as this is what every ryzen chip can achieve without much trouble.I will simply change the RAM settings:
1st:2113mhz 16-18-18-36-52-1T
2nd:2113mhz What ever timings I find stable enough at 1.35v
3rd:2666mhz 16-18-18-36-52-1T
4th:2666mhz 12-15-15-30-48-1T (Might go lower as I still didn't finish tuning it and stress testing)
5th:Single channel 8gb 3060mhz if I feel like doing so.

For the benchmark I would measure real time elapsed from the beginning of replay to the moment it shows the replay finished pop up. As for programs in background I'm gonna leave Discord/Slack/Malvarebytes/Mouse Software and Chrome with youtube open to emulate my usual gaming habits. Unless we want to go with clean windows then I don't mind but I don't think it will represent proper gaming enviroment of typical faf player :lol:.

Spoiler: show
And yeah I know I have shit ram/shit memory controller.
Gonna change it next year with zen2
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Re: How is simspeed lag in 2018?

Postby E8400-CV » 20 Jun 2018, 03:11

Don't forget to include 1866, as that's Ryzen2's default memory clock for 4 DR DIMMs. Sooner or later a lot of people are going to end up with that.
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