Why FAF competitive scene is dying

[Oeterama68]

Well to try and add some to the discussion here, mostly with regards to ladder.

With the change to a larger map pool, I think ladder has seen a burst of new life (and it's amazing). That's one problem solved pretty much. So any new changes should focus on the quality of the experience. However massive rating deltas are insanely common in ladder (I think at least). To elaborate;

1. New players get matched with outrageous opponents during first 10 games, this is just bad design per definition. The lower ranges are quite populated and there really is no reason to keep this current system. Your first 10 games should perhaps leave you at a 1000 rating if you win them all and match you with opponents on average below that. All the current system encourages is to make smurf accounts every now and then to try and end up really high (remember when crazed broke ladder? xD). It is also disheartening as shit for new players. If there is no option for ''unranked'' 1v1 automatch then this shit needs to be TAILORED for new players, there is no other option that's not suicidal for the ladder in the long run.
2. Very high rating deltas are still super common at middle ranges, for example a few days ago I was at ~1350ish ladder and got matched (repeatedly!) with an ~1800 player. This is in the majority of the cases pretty fucked up and makes me wonder if this much looseness in matching criteria is necessary (esp. with the resurgence in activity) and whether it is conducive to the ladder experience (it probably isn't).
3. & 4. There are no seasons/soft resets & no prestige awards for being good. These two things are kind of linked together. In virtually every competitive game nowadays there are seasons with soft resets, it's just a staple of modern gaming culture and not going along with this for whatever reason makes the system feel awkward and outdated to pretty much every competitive minded player who is used to trying to 'compete'. It allows people to try and reach new heights during a new season, it prevents ladder anxiety because you know it's just one season, it brings a massive resurgence of activity as new seasons begin, etc.

Rewards are linked to this, while most modern games offer cosmetics etc, this is not super feasible in FAF as far as I know, but some measure of recognition should still be possible. Even a bronze/silver/gold/platinum/diamond extra avatar or badge next to your name/different color name/anything that's feasible would tremendously appeal to anyone who is used to having these kinds of things in games with a competitive 'atmosphere'. It's an incentive to participate and recognition for doing so, it opens the door to end of season tournaments (where you'd want the few real prizes we have) for different tiers, results of which could be featured in the client and the website. Comparing with the current situation, the amount of prestige coupled to this is just so, so much more.

I think these are very basic 'structures' and there's a reason they're seen in almost every competitive minded game out there, it's because they work. If it's possible to implement them and implement them well, there really is no reason not to. Of course this depends on how feasible they are, if deltas remain massive there will still be an atmosphere of unfairness, if there are no resets then it's weird to have rewards because they will feel permanently out of reach, especially if they're not split up for different tiers, etc. Perhaps at the 1800-2000+ range there are too few players to have small deltas, but even then there are easy and obvious solutions, like ''challenger/grand champion tiers (with the top xxx players)", in fact this might be the only place where it even makes sense to display the exact rating rather than the associated tier. Well I've rambled enough now, but this is my opinion on how to perhaps provide a boost for the competitive environment.

P.S. On a sidenote, I touched on this earlier but why is there no unranked 1v1 automatch? It's kinda weird to not have a practice environment out of custom 1v1's, if you want a competitive environment you need to distinguish it from the casual environment, otherwise both are the same thing by definition and it's impossible for one to flourish independent of and without hurting the other

[moonbearonmeth]

Your first 10 games should perhaps leave you at a 1000 rating if you win them all and match you with opponents on average below that.

And what does this actually do?

All the current system encourages is to make smurf accounts every now and then to try and end up really high

How does it do that?

It is also disheartening as shit for new players

In my experience of talking with new players they're more afraid of taking responsibility for their own faults than they are of being seal clubbed.

If there is no option for ''unranked'' 1v1 automatch

This sounds like a great way for me to see how many wall section penises I can make until my opponent realises I don't give a shit.
But seriously, what's wrong with custom 1v1? It's called 'global' not 'you have to play with teams'.

~1350ish ladder and got matched (repeatedly!) with an ~1800

I get that you're trying to make a point and I do find this surprising especially given that I thought the range was +/- 200 but don't lie about it. You're a 1400 ladder player now, congratulations.

In virtually every competitive game nowadays there are seasons with soft resets

And every other competitive game nowadays has different motives.
What I'm about to say is more of a personal opinion from me but the (assumed) reason you all stuck around to play Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance is because it is different, it isn't the same generic RTS template 50 games have done before (and better), you stuck around because it said 'f*** you' to what everyone else was doing.
The other difference is that this is a community project, not some company pandering to e-sports.
I get that the devs and many others put a lot of effort into all this but it sometimes seems like it is wasted on the fruitless endevour to seem 'professional' like everyone else rather than owning the fact that they don't have to be.

Rewards are linked to this... ...so much more.

Literally anything anyone has ever said about bringing divisions back.


EDIT: Removed racist and bad language

[angus000]

Obvious answer is leagues

[Oeterama68]

Bunch of stuff

Eh, I'm too lazy to select all quotes seperately so I'll just answer point by point I guess

The first; it makes the experience far more consistent for new players, the current system caters to returning players (who still remember how to play but made new accounts) so they can reach their rank quickly. For the rest it's just shitty. For truly new players it's just bad, there's no need for them to face 1000+ rated people because it's unlikely they'll manage much if anything anyway. What advantages does the current system have exactly that makes it far superior to the alternative I suggested?

The second; because new players don't need it, but if you've played a ton and learned a lot it's just way faster. It's happened (afaik) a thousand times (exxaggerating obviously, since you seem to take things very literally ^^) already, good players also make smurf accounts after a break to ''unrust'' etc, none of this improves the experience or helps the competitive scene at all.

The third; well we have had different experiences then. I've brought quite a few friends to the game and they mention it, so I brought it up. What are the advantages of having new players get 'sealclubbed' (as you so aptly put it) anyway?

The fourth, well that's nice for you and really underlines the value of your opinion in a thread about the competitive scene...(Ok sorry for the ad hominem but you called me a liar xD). I would like an effective way to practice things I'm not used to doing, or to have a noncompetitive environment to warm up in (a super common practice at high level gaming btw), etc. Again, a serious reasoning of why not having it is better than having it would be nice. Edit: Also it's quite hard to get someone to custom 1v1, and it's still not the same as ladder; you pick your map beforehand, both know what factions the other is using before the game, etc. Hell, even a ''random ladder map'' option in the custom game options would help with this I guess.

Fifth, well maybe you're not familliar with the common use of a tilde but in this context it means roughly and I didn't check the numbers exactly (since it didn't seem necessary) although I like how you nitpicked the options instead of going for the 1367 vs 1787 of my first game against RoEnEvgC (hey, I checked now ). I don't like being called a liar by the way, so sorry for the douchy tone but it's entirely intended.

Sixth, well the game is good, but in case you didn't notice the whole problem is that people don't stick around, at least not the majority of them and even less bother to get good at it. The reason these kinds of things are done repeatedly is because they, surprise, work. Some stuff rooted in behavioural psychology I'd imagine xD. Nice rant btw, maybe take it easy on the antisemitic ragemouth crap? It kinda discredits whatever comes before and after it.

Again, I don't see what's wrong with making some of these changes since we're trying to progress forward, or at least discussing them. I may not have read them (the thread is big and I have a bad habit of skipping some posts) so feel free to link me, but what exactly were your contributions to the discussion, or are you just here to try and shoot down what others say? Once again, sorry if I'm being a bit of a d***, but you did kinda ask for it.

[FtXCommando]

Bunch of stuff

The fourth, well that's nice for you and really underlines the value of your opinion in a thread about the competitive scene...(Ok sorry for the ad hominem but you called me a liar xD). I would like an effective way to practice things I'm not used to doing, or to have a noncompetitive environment to warm up in (a super common practice at high level gaming btw), etc. Again, a serious reasoning of why not having it is better than having it would be nice. Edit: Also it's quite hard to get someone to custom 1v1, and it's still not the same as ladder; you pick your map beforehand, both know what factions the other is using before the game, etc. Hell, even a ''random ladder map'' option in the custom game options would help with this I guess.

If you don't want to play games that affect your ladder rating, play global 1v1s. If you don't want to play games that affects your global rating, unrank them.

There is literally zero reason to create a ladder that is not rated. All it would do is divide the ladder playerbase, which at the high level, is already a handful of people.

[Oeterama68]

If you don't want to play games that affect your ladder rating, play global 1v1s. If you don't want to play games that affects your global rating, unrank them.

There is literally zero reason to create a ladder that is not rated. All it would do is divide the ladder playerbase, which at the high level, is already a handful of people.

Well, there's the obvious question of whether this will even prove to be the case or not. Small ladder pool was thought to increase ladder activity too and, well we know what happened xD But I admit the risk is there, common practice seems to be to test something (if it is easy to implement of course, if not then I rest my case) and then see whether people like it or not. It's easy to make a blanket statement on a baseless prediction (unless it has been done before or something similar, in which case I apoligize and promise to slap myself at least once) and use that to shoot down an option. On the other hand it could have a positive effect too, and thus it might be worth trying. Still I understand that dev power is limited, so there's in my opinion still the option to at least add the ''random ladder map'' option to global to facilitate this, no? (once again, if feasible).

[FtXCommando]

What is the positive effect? People that stopped playing 1v1 will suddenly start playing because they will not lose points? That system already exists. Do you think people will start playing more because they get to hit that nice ladder button AND they won't lose points? This adds nothing and will do nothing but take the people that occasionally host global 1v1s to use this system. It's at best a change that has a net zero effect.

I mean adding some custom game button that let's it pick a random map from ladder is cool. That's all that needs to exist, everything else is really not an argument as the systems exist for them already.

[Lieutenant Lich]

It seems that you, Oeterama, forget that FA has a steep learning curve. A player who gives up after his first couple defeats is useless. Like with all games (especially RTS), it takes some dedication to get good.

On the topic though, adding an option to favorite/veto maps is probably the best solution to the ladder problem. Generally, FAF isn't as toxic as other game communities, like TF2, BF1, Warface (mail.ru version) or Minecraft, so that's not so big of a deal. Launching GW would help, too, since now it's not just some random fights on random maps, you've got a goal and a team to work with, go fight!

[moonbearonmeth]

What advantages does the current system have exactly that makes it far superior to the alternative I suggested?
...
What are the advantages of having new players get 'sealclubbed' (as you so aptly put it) anyway?

The refreshing reminder that you are not good at this game and that you can't just turtle for 40 minutes to 'rush' a monkeylord because you're 'good at eco'.
I have to agree with Lich-king on this, FA isn't easy and trying to hide people from this fact is an exercise in futility.

The second; because new players don't need it, but if you've played a ton and learned a lot it's just way faster. It's happened (afaik) a thousand times already, good players also make smurf accounts after a break to ''unrust'' etc, none of this improves the experience or helps the competitive scene at all.
...
I like how you nitpicked the options instead of going for the 1367 vs 1787 of my first game against RoEnEvgC (hey, I checked now ).

Believe it or not I didn't (intentionally) nitpick. I looked through the past 5 replays and found games within these large rating differences didn't exactly think it would be necessary to look at the second Congreve replay because typically if someone is having a bitch and moan about a 400 rating difference, it's because they lost.
Which kind of leads to the second point which is for someone who is just returning from a long break, you seem to know an awful lot about why people smurf and make secondary accounts to unrust.

well that's nice for you and really underlines the value of your opinion in a thread about the competitive scene

You're welcome, I wasn't sure I made it clear enough.

I would like an effective way to practice things I'm not used to doing, or to have a noncompetitive environment to warm up in (a super common practice at high level gaming btw), etc. Again, a serious reasoning of why not having it is better than having it would be nice. Edit: Also it's quite hard to get someone to custom 1v1, and it's still not the same as ladder; you pick your map beforehand, both know what factions the other is using before the game, etc. Hell, even a ''random ladder map'' option in the custom game options would help with this I guess.

I feel FTX summed up my thoughts on this quite nicely. I do particularly like the random map idea.

Sixth, well the game is good, but in case you didn't notice the whole problem is that people don't stick around, at least not the majority of them and even less bother to get good at it.
...
I may not have read them (the thread is big and I have a bad habit of skipping some posts) so feel free to link me, but what exactly were your contributions to the discussion

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15548#p157452

Nice rant btw, maybe take it easy on the antisemitic ragemouth crap? It kinda discredits whatever comes before and after it.

No. Besides, Scruffy seems to be doing a good job.

Again, I don't see what's wrong with making some of these changes since we're trying to progress forward, or at least discussing them.

We are discussing them.

or are you just here to try and shoot down what others say?

Oh nice, we're two posts in and we already hit the 'disagreeing with me is like you are trolling me'

[Oeterama68]

Well I doubt any new players think they are 'good at the game', and I agree FA has a learning curve with an impossible to reach skill ceiling and while the ceiling bit isn't necessarily true for many games, it's not like FA is exceptionally difficult (although that's my subjective opinion). Reaching top tier in many, many games is a brutal slog and kind of generally understood to be so. Still, I'm not convinced that the current system of 'get utterly obliterated with absolutely nothing you can do about it' is justified by 'understand that you suck'. I think the added value of smoothing the experience to a lower rating range is a lot more fun for both new players and entrenched ones (I'm certainly not interested in fighting a new player in 1v1, nor is he interested in fighting me, it's gonna suck for both of us). Obviously in a theoretical situation they'll still get pretty much crushed, but they might at least last long enough to enjoy themselves a bit. I don't know how to really explain this better, it makes too much sense in my own head xD

Fair enough on the nitpicking, I was being a little hostile, sorry about that ;p
I didn't mean it as a bitch and moan, I won both games vs Congreve (didn't know it was Congreve, holy shit) and it's not an issue that bothers me personally, but I assumed that for the far majority of FAF players these kind of matchups are basically unwinnable. I wrote a bunch of stuff in this paragraph that I deleted because I think it wasn't really contested that the range is atm maybe a bit too high, although at very high levels it's probably worth keeping the high range since population is so scarce, not an unsolveable issue by any means and one that benefits the overall health of ladder if I may boldly say so.
And yes, I had to make a new account because I didn't have access to my old one anymore, 4 years is a long time after all. And it's not like it's an uncommon thing, lu xun made a lot of smurfs, crazed broke ladder with one iirc, running smurfchecks on suspicious people leads to usually finding an account with tons of games and lower rating than the smurf, etc. I don't think it's difficult to make deductions based on this.

Meh.

I'll concede the point for the less risky option I guess, will make proposal for the random ladder map option soon then, make sure to back it!

Thanks for the link, kinda bad I didn't re-read at least the first page >.< I fully agree with you on the image issue, I'm not entirely sure how to fix it either, although I think Speed2 is doing some tutorials that might help people understand how gameplay in ladder works, which is at least a (huge) step in the right direction.

Indeed we are, although I don't think you're trolling me, it's just that I didn't interpret it very constructively, but that's perhaps my own fault.