Nomads are back!

[FtXCommando]

Wouldn't trust players to vote on a color for aeolus let alone the inclusion of a new faction.

May we assume you know what's best for everyone then?

I think I count as a player.

[BenDover]

I think I count as a player.

Well if you don't trust your own opinion I can't really help you.

[Zeldafanboy]

So you are telling me that as long as the aesthetics alone are brought to a visually-pleasing level you are good with them to go in the game?

I said polished AND balanced in the post you originally replied to.

It's a meme faction that does nothing but create more problems because a bunch of 1ks need more tools they don't understand to play with.

You're using the word "meme" as just a buzzword being thrown around. Secondly, your insinuation that noobs want the Nomads to be in the game so they can have more tools and rank better is laughable. I just want more fun variety in the game. I don't think I'll do any better with Nomads than with Cybran, even in their current state.

Explain to me how their mml doesn't drastically change gameplay. Explain how their extreme surplus of amphibious units doesn't change gameplay. Explain how a transport being able to drop a monkeylord doesn't change gameplay. Explain how a t3 missile arty that is far less expensive than t3 arty but has huge range doesn't change gameplay. Explain how speed upgrades on acus doesn't change gameplay.

By "drastically change gameplay" I don't mean specific strategies that impact units, I mean changes to the whole systems of the game like Engymod did. Adding Nomads would change the game less than Engymod did.

Besides, the MML being able to fire from underwater is situational, nor is many amphibious units overpowered in any way. A transport trying to drop an ML is actually LESS likely to succeed than a CZAR because the Comet has less health. The T3 arty needs to be nerfed, I agree, and perhaps the ACU upgrades can be adjusted. But, I never said Nomads should be integrated in its current state. I agree that it needs to be high quality and balanced before integration is considered.

Far more people play phantom and yet we have no ranking system for it.

PhantomX is a minigame that changes the core gameplay and requires special maps. Nomads is completely different. You would've had a better analogy if you used Black Ops or Total Mayhem or something.

[BenDover]

PhantomX is a minigame that changes the core gameplay and requires special maps. Nomads is completely different. You would've had a better analogy if you used Black Ops or Total Mayhem or something.

That's beside the point. It's a mod, it shouldn't be ranked nor forced upon everyone, blackops or others. If someone wants to play it they are free to do so but far more importantly - people who don't are completely oblivious to it.

[FtXCommando]

So you are telling me that as long as the aesthetics alone are brought to a visually-pleasing level you are good with them to go in the game?

I said polished AND balanced in the post you originally replied to.

It's a meme faction that does nothing but create more problems because a bunch of 1ks need more tools they don't understand to play with.

You're using the word "meme" as just a buzzword being thrown around. Secondly, your insinuation that noobs want the Nomads to be in the game so they can have more tools and rank better is laughable. I just want more fun variety in the game. I don't think I'll do any better with Nomads than with Cybran, even in their current state.

Explain to me how their mml doesn't drastically change gameplay. Explain how their extreme surplus of amphibious units doesn't change gameplay. Explain how a transport being able to drop a monkeylord doesn't change gameplay. Explain how a t3 missile arty that is far less expensive than t3 arty but has huge range doesn't change gameplay. Explain how speed upgrades on acus doesn't change gameplay.

By "drastically change gameplay" I don't mean specific strategies that impact units, I mean changes to the whole systems of the game like Engymod did. Adding Nomads would change the game less than Engymod did.

Besides, the MML being able to fire from underwater is situational, nor is many amphibious units overpowered in any way. A transport trying to drop an ML is actually LESS likely to succeed than a CZAR because the Comet has less health. The T3 arty needs to be nerfed, I agree, and perhaps the ACU upgrades can be adjusted. But, I never said Nomads should be integrated in its current state. I agree that it needs to be high quality and balanced before integration is considered.

Far more people play phantom and yet we have no ranking system for it.

PhantomX is a minigame that changes the core gameplay and requires special maps. Nomads is completely different. You would've had a better analogy if you used Black Ops or Total Mayhem or something.

You want fun and variety? This game has some of the largest variety in RTS. Don't think it's fun? Find a new game. I think the game is fun. I think it's selfish of you to change the game so you can have fun to ruin my fun. Think the game is fun but you want more variety? Play the mod called Nomads.

Still waiting for the explanation that informs me how adding a brand new faction into the normal balance is okay but adding black ops units is not. How does one have no affect on trueskill while the other does.

Engymod was added to fix an underlying problem and was a contentious issue. You want to add a faction for no reason whatsoever other than that you are bored and want points from games with it. False comparison.

You think underwater MML is just situational? Yeah, they're not. How do you kill underwater mml that is behind your base on Loki? You just forced your opponent to go t2 air for torpedo bombers because of like 3 mmls. Totally fine.

[Farmsletje]

And the main reason people don't play it is because it is a mod, that sounds like a bad word to them.

Cause galance and bhalance weren't played at all...

What are you even trying to accomplish here? To convince us that nomads should be added to the main game? If so, please spend some time trying to come up with good arguments to avoid wasting everyone's time here.

OK so here are my arguments :
- 1 the mod is not heavily game changing, it will only take a few games to learn the strengths and weaknesses
- 2 we could add an option to enable/disable it for eternal close minded people
- 3 the mod is already quite well balanced
- 4 it would bring some fresh air in the game
- 5 Microsoft added lots of civilisations in AOE II HD nobody complains
- 6 new champions are added in League of Legends every 2 months and are immediately playable in ranked games and nobody complains
- 7 this is sad that such a well done mod is only played by some newbies when it has the same quality as if GPG devs had made it

And your arguments are :
- I don't want to play against them don't force me
- ?

Okay first of all, you (and/or others) want something added to the game, that means YOU are the one that needs to provide arguments. You can't make it like "yes i want to add xxx to the game." and telling others to make arguments against it while you didn't provide any usefull ones. You have to try and convince us with arguments that it is a good idea to add it to the game, and based on that we argue in return.

With that being said, you need GOOD arguments. If i take a quick look at yours: 1 is totally incorrect. 2 is not even an argument. 3 isn't valid cause the same thing applies to all other balance mods (EQ, galance, bhalance, etc). Should all those mods be added to the game? 5 isn't an argument. 6 isn't an argument. 7: "It's sad that EQ is barely played after all the hard work that has gone into it"

So all in all your only argument is to bring fresh air to the game, which imo isn't a bad argument. But again, making EQ the main faf balance does the exact same thing, so you need a lot more to be able to justify it.

And just so you know. I am not totally against adding nomads to the game. I like the mod but i'm still unsure if i would want it in the main game. It's just that i disagree with your arguments.

Besides, the MML being able to fire from underwater is situational, nor is many amphibious units overpowered in any way. A transport trying to drop an ML is actually LESS likely to succeed than a CZAR because the Comet has less health. The T3 arty needs to be nerfed, I agree, and perhaps the ACU upgrades can be adjusted. But, I never said Nomads should be integrated in its current state. I agree that it needs to be high quality and balanced before integration is considered.

Situational or not, overpowered or not, small chance to succed or not, balanced or not. None of it matters. We were talking about a change in gameplay. Just like you need different tactics against every current faction, you need different tactics versus nomads. Does that mean it's bad? Not necessarily. Does that mean it is a big change in gameplay? yes

[CookieNoob]

The comparisons with Seraphim are completely dishonest. The central issue, at least for me, is that I came to play Forged Alliance. You can't compare the nomad faction to the situation between vanilla and FA because of the fact that the Seraphim were an established faction by the company that created the game. Nomads is an entirely user created faction and so is a totally different category from Seraphim. It would be like comparing a Star Wars game that began with the Republic and CIS, added an expansion with the Empire and Rebels, and using that expansion to justify the addition of some weird pirate faction that was created by some modders into the main game.

The central argument: I don't want to see a new faction because I don't want a new faction. Don't really need to justify why the status quo should be maintained.

Quite frankly, such a large change is enough of a reason to create a mod that eliminates the faction or just quit faf altogether as the "forever" part no longer applies.

The game should be as stock as possible, if I want a mod I'll install it myself.

if you want to play the game that the company that created it released you either need to play on steam (3603 already has content from modders as it was included by gpg back then) or in dstojkovs lobby where you can play good old 3599 (he will be happy about 100% user increase). The FAF-mod (yes, FAF is a mod) is actively developed by players and has made 4587 changes from version 3603 until today (as you can see here) https://github.com/FAForever/fa to improve gameplay and include new features (what problems are fixed with air craft bouncing of shields or a different sinking animation for harms?).

There is simply no reason to make a mod that removes nomads (its totally useless to even suggest that) as it is required to enable the mod as a host and when you are the host anyway you can simply set a unit restriction.

Implementing nomads into the main game is a longer term project and wont happen in the next few days or weeks. If brute and pip were satisfied with a half yearly update cycle, you would have nomads in the main game since ~3.5 years ago. Implementing nomads into base FAF was part of the "next" project.

Prior to integrating it, there would be some phase where the nomad mod would be on top of the featured mod list (instead of faf) and some announcements about this, furthermore there will probably be a poll about this. But as I said: this wont happen any time soon.


about why it should be integrated: its basically an expansion (like Forged Alliance) for free which adds a little bit less content than FA did when it was released. In contrast to blackops or other unit mods, it doesnt add units for the other factions thus their game play is not a changed when playing vs other FA factions. When playing against nomads, different strategies are required but that applies to all factions (you cant play in the same way against UEF and aeon).
Adding them is also from an advertising point of view a great thing as it is a real reason to prefer FAF over steam and thus generating a larger player base (same thing applies to galactic war).
There are more reasons to add it, but as it wont happen soon anyway, I wont go further into detail.

maybe some moderator can split this discussion from the "nomads are back" topic as most of these posts here are off topic.

[FtXCommando]

The comparisons with Seraphim are completely dishonest. The central issue, at least for me, is that I came to play Forged Alliance. You can't compare the nomad faction to the situation between vanilla and FA because of the fact that the Seraphim were an established faction by the company that created the game. Nomads is an entirely user created faction and so is a totally different category from Seraphim. It would be like comparing a Star Wars game that began with the Republic and CIS, added an expansion with the Empire and Rebels, and using that expansion to justify the addition of some weird pirate faction that was created by some modders into the main game.

The central argument: I don't want to see a new faction because I don't want a new faction. Don't really need to justify why the status quo should be maintained.

Quite frankly, such a large change is enough of a reason to create a mod that eliminates the faction or just quit faf altogether as the "forever" part no longer applies.

The game should be as stock as possible, if I want a mod I'll install it myself.

if you want to play the game that the company that created it released you either need to play on steam (3603 already has content from modders as it was included by gpg back then) or in dstojkovs lobby where you can play good old 3599 (he will be happy about 100% user increase). The FAF-mod (yes, FAF is a mod) is actively developed by players and has made 4587 changes from version 3603 until today (as you can see here) https://github.com/FAForever/fa to improve gameplay and include new features (what problems are fixed with air craft bouncing of shields or a different sinking animation for harms?).

There is simply no reason to make a mod that removes nomads (its totally useless to even suggest that) as it is required to enable the mod as a host and when you are the host anyway you can simply set a unit restriction.

Implementing nomads into the main game is a longer term project and wont happen in the next few days or weeks. If brute and pip were satisfied with a half yearly update cycle, you would have nomads in the main game since ~3.5 years ago. Implementing nomads into base FAF was part of the "next" project.

Prior to integrating it, there would be some phase where the nomad mod would be on top of the featured mod list (instead of faf) and some announcements about this, furthermore there will probably be a poll about this. But as I said: this wont happen any time soon.


about why it should be integrated: its basically an expansion (like Forged Alliance) for free which adds a little bit less content than FA did when it was released. In contrast to blackops or other unit mods, it doesnt add units for the other factions thus their game play is not a changed when playing vs other FA factions. When playing against nomads, different strategies are required but that applies to all factions (you cant play in the same way against UEF and aeon).
Adding them is also from an advertising point of view a great thing as it is a real reason to prefer FAF over steam and thus generating a larger player base (same thing applies to galactic war).
There are more reasons to add it, but as it wont happen soon anyway, I wont go further into detail.

maybe some moderator can split this discussion from the "nomads are back" topic as most of these posts here are off topic.

Well I think we both know that Nomads is a bit more than a bug fix, optimization patch, QOL improvement, or added feature on the client. The discussion is really quite simple.

Does adding Nomads make trueskill any less reliable that it was before the inclusion?

If anyone believes that it has no affect on trueskill, I just want to hear how they can justify adding Nomads yet refusing to add mods that just add units to factions. I really don't understand how adding a feature like underwater mml is okay but adding a laser pd for Cybran is not. If both are "balanced" so that they don't overpower the faction, surely they are both okay to include in the normal game? I thought plenty of people were firm on the grounds that no new units should be added to the game after the addition of T3 MAA? Why does adding a new faction somehow elude this?

If the central argument is that gameplay must not change significantly, then why can't every faction just be given like 5 comparable black ops units that serve the same purpose and had relatively similar stats? This seems to fit the description of not changing the gameplay between factions as they have the same unit to use as a counter. It also adds more variety and diversity into the game. Isn't that what we want?

I don't see why people would care to come over from Steam because Nomads is ranked. We already have the faction, they did not come. The ranked argument is totally bogus and we have equilibrium to prove it. How much of an increased player base did equilibrium get after it got ranked? Nomads won't be any different and arguing off of vague hopes that it will lead to some new players is just throwing a Hail Mary reason for a mod to be implemented. I see no data saying that Steam players have a contentious issue with FAF because the Nomads mod is not ranked and in order to spite FAF they will not play on it all.

The idea of having something to remove Nomads would come into play if the mod became part of the regular game so that you wouldn't HAVE to select the mod. It would just be there. Sure, playing with restrictions is possible but really at that point it's just trying to hold back the tide. The change being enabled for FAF is when the client crosses a bridge and goes in a different balance direction. At that point, it isn't FA Forever anymore but FA Modified. I'm sure the same opinion came up with Engy-Mod being implemented, and this change will be just as divisive for many if it is put into action.

The poll is BS honestly. The only people that should be deciding on whether this faction is in the main game are those that are in a position of authority to decide on such matters. Why let people that have no concept of even traditional game balance vote on something so drastic? It's just going to lead to demagoguery that will be fueled by base impulses to want new shiny toys in the game.

[CSI]

In my poor opinion of average 1k player as you let me know, Equilibrium is way more game changing than nomads, since you need to relearn all the prices and adopt a different eco curve, and this with all 4 factions. It may be better overhaul but again I don't see a full Equilibrium game more than once a week because it says the dangerous word "mod" below.

[Farmsletje]

I don't see a full Equilibrium game more than once a week because it says the dangerous word "mod" below.

Yes i'm sure EQ will be played a lot more if you remove the 'mod' tag.