automatch/ladder map pool (OUTDATED, SEE LINK)

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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby Freedomfighter » 29 Mar 2017, 23:36

Won't be playing ladder until the rotation after next then
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby Freedomfighter » 30 Mar 2017, 03:35

Lateralus wrote:From a noob's point of view, the large 1v1 ladder maps are very difficult to play. When we start out on ladder, could we play the small maps first until we rank up, then play the medium and large ones at higher ranks? This game has a very steep learning curve as it is and the large maps make this challenge even harder.


I started playing FAF in the Zep reign when there was over 100 maps in the ladder pool, I began by playing 1v1 and when it got changed I stopped.

What was nice about the old system was that a new player could choose which ladder maps they would prefer to play on, this would give them a higher chance on playing on the maps that they had seen before or knew from Gyle casts. The system would then pick some other random map for them to play on every so often and if the new player liked it they could add that map to there list of maps they want to play on. This gradually built up the number of maps that a player had selected in the map pool and as they built up the chance of playing on a new map indirectly decreased.

I had learnt a game that was reliant on my adaptability, I played over 300 ladder games like that and it was fun and interesting because no game was the same due to my improvement before playing the same map again.
Now when I play ladder as a ~1450 rated player, I get thrashed by 1000 rated players because they know exactly where everything is on the map and know exactly where to send each tank, lab and engineer. If I were to play them on a map that neither of us know at all it would be obvious who would win.

The old system of having 100 maps in the map pool and then picking which maps you wanted to play on was a way better system. As long as you picked enough maps you could always play on the maps you had picked. Now all the newbies have to play all the big maps and all the older players have to play all the 10k maps they have played 300 times and are sick of.

As for being more noob friendly, now all it is, is which newbie has seen more of heavens map specific build order videos. How is that fair when a 600 plays a 100 and gets destroyed like they have never played before because the 600 can't speak English. They then play a custom game and the 600 walks all over the 100 like they should do but doesn't get there 40 odd rating points back. Coping people is not a skill that should be promoted. It leads to boring games on boring maps.
All this lastest change is going to do is drive more players away from ladder. You need to find a way to make all the older players play 1v1 again before you make a shit storm of giving a reason for the new players to play ladder.
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby KeyBlue » 30 Mar 2017, 05:01

Freedomfighter wrote:

You nicely point out what the issue was with the old system. If you don't know the map but the other person did then you got thrashed. (like how you get thrashed in your example)
So unless you have knowledge about most of the maps, then you could still lose every single game against a weaker player simply because they got lucky with a map they knew how to play.

But now there are only a couple of maps. So you can get a BO for each and everyone of them. And you will get rewarded for the effort you put into learning those maps.
Like you explained: every noob who looks at heavens BO tutorials can beat your bad BO's. Well they should cause they obviously put way more effort into it then you did. Or at least more efficient effort.

Not sure why you say copying is bad. To get good you need to steal your opponents BO and strategies. You need to use them to improve your own game.
Sure a noob will blindly follow a heaven BO but is that so bad? If he has the drive to keep copying the BO's he should eventually be able to make some himself, improve and evolve. What if can't and just does the same copied shit? Well then you beat him cause as the superior player you are you won't lose during the first few moments of the BO and crush him when his copied BO guideline has ended.


My personal experience:
I'm in BAW clan and we have clan training moments each week.
There I can ask people to review my games and we go over them and point out mistakes.
Afterwards i'm happy to see the same map we reviewed in a ladder match, because i have a greater understanding of the map now and will be able to play at a higher level. And i enjoy being able to play on a higher level.
The things i learned about that map ofcourse can be applied to similar maps so when a new map gets rotated in I can reuse parts of the knowledge i gained by playing the previous rotation.
This would be a lot more difficult to do with 100 maps since you won't get the same map again so i can't easily apply my new knowledge.
Only after seeing it work on the map i learned it for, will it become easier to apply it to others.

I'm of the opinion that you can get the same effect by replacing clan training with simply watching your replays and seeing what your opponent did better. If you have to wait 100 games to get that map again you'll never remember what he did, so you'll probably do your usual MO again.


Remember this is ladder. It should be the competitive scene. We should try to raise the level to new heights, not stay at the old lows of doing whatever.
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby Lateralus » 30 Mar 2017, 07:19

Freedomfighter wrote:
Lateralus wrote:From a noob's point of view, the large 1v1 ladder maps are very difficult to play. When we start out on ladder, could we play the small maps first until we rank up, then play the medium and large ones at higher ranks? This game has a very steep learning curve as it is and the large maps make this challenge even harder.


I started playing FAF in the Zep reign when there was over 100 maps in the ladder pool, I began by playing 1v1 and when it got changed I stopped.

What was nice about the old system was that a new player could choose which ladder maps they would prefer to play on, this would give them a higher chance on playing on the maps that they had seen before or knew from Gyle casts. The system would then pick some other random map for them to play on every so often and if the new player liked it they could add that map to there list of maps they want to play on. This gradually built up the number of maps that a player had selected in the map pool and as they built up the chance of playing on a new map indirectly decreased.

I had learnt a game that was reliant on my adaptability, I played over 300 ladder games like that and it was fun and interesting because no game was the same due to my improvement before playing the same map again.
Now when I play ladder as a ~1450 rated player, I get thrashed by 1000 rated players because they know exactly where everything is on the map and know exactly where to send each tank, lab and engineer. If I were to play them on a map that neither of us know at all it would be obvious who would win.

The old system of having 100 maps in the map pool and then picking which maps you wanted to play on was a way better system. As long as you picked enough maps you could always play on the maps you had picked. Now all the newbies have to play all the big maps and all the older players have to play all the 10k maps they have played 300 times and are sick of.

As for being more noob friendly, now all it is, is which newbie has seen more of heavens map specific build order videos. How is that fair when a 600 plays a 100 and gets destroyed like they have never played before because the 600 can't speak English. They then play a custom game and the 600 walks all over the 100 like they should do but doesn't get there 40 odd rating points back. Coping people is not a skill that should be promoted. It leads to boring games on boring maps.
All this lastest change is going to do is drive more players away from ladder. You need to find a way to make all the older players play 1v1 again before you make a shit storm of giving a reason for the new players to play ladder.


I don't care how many maps there are in the pool and I kind of like the idea of having to adapt to each new map instead of the same ones all the time. All I proposed was that the new and low ranked players start out on the small maps first until they've ranked up enough to play the medium and larger ones. My idea wouldn't have effected the higher ranked players.
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby Anihilnine » 30 Mar 2017, 07:50

Tokyto wrote:The Land Wilderness V3 - a small map for fast games
Roanoke Abyss - a 20km naval map
Loki - a classic land 10km expansion-heavy map
Eye of the Storm - a 10km map with lot of possible strategies. Allowing the use of all Land/Naval/Air strategies
Syrtis Major - Another classic 10km map, with lot of reclaim potential and heavy land plays


1. I feel like now I am forced to whore build orders, whereas if there were many maps in the pool then I don't have to. When there are just a couple of maps then my opponents get great build orders and stomp me.

2. Personally I think Roanoke/Eye/Loki are maps that annoy many people (I could be wrong about that). If you were going to make such a small set maybe you could find the least controversial maps. An easy way to do that would be to look at the map choices ladder players actually made back when they could choose.

Anyway whatever every ladder player is different and can't please everyone. I'm not thrilled about this change but I will be playing :)

#fuckroanoke
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby speed2 » 30 Mar 2017, 09:59

It's a ladder, if you want to be good at it, you need to whore BOs
Spoiler: show
or be ZLO and do some crazy shit no one understands

But 5 maps feels way too few for me. I got pretty bored if I play the same map twice and this chance increases a lot with this change, but it's jsut a test so w/e.
Spoiler: show
Anyway the change required for me to start playing ladder would be some proper divisions or pretty much anything that would get added that would make ladder intresing again as I dont really care about the rating.
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby Freedomfighter » 30 Mar 2017, 15:20

KeyBlue wrote:
Freedomfighter wrote:

You nicely point out what the issue was with the old system. If you don't know the map but the other person did then you got thrashed. (like how you get thrashed in your example)


The thing is the more maps you have the less someone knows about each map, reducing the chance of drawing a map that either player has had enough experience on to have a single concrete build order.
When I'm teaching players I teach generic build orders not map specific ones so why have a ladder that relies on map specific build orders. I don't teach players the ladder maps because they get boring when you have to play them on ladder, watch them when giving tips and play them when training people.

So the prefect solution would be to do what command and conquer used to be able to do and randomly generate a different map for every game. I guess there is just to many variables for that to happen in supreme commander.

Lateralus wrote:I don't care how many maps there are in the pool and I kind of like the idea of having to adapt to each new map instead of the same ones all the time. All I proposed was that the new and low ranked players start out on the small maps first until they've ranked up enough to play the medium and larger ones. My idea wouldn't have effected the higher ranked players.


The old system allowed for someone to only pick 5k maps if they wished to meaning most of that players games would be on 5k maps.

speed2 wrote:Anyway the change required for me to start playing ladder would be some proper divisions or pretty much anything that would get added that would make ladder intresing again as I dont really care about the rating.


And as Speed says divisions are basically the long term answer to this, I kind of feel like I'm having a bit of deja vu here didn't Softly suggest this years ago?
The top players can fight it out for a quarterly/half yearly/ yearly title, the noobs can play noobs on noob friendly maps and the average Joes can get a game against someone that isn't either 400 rated points above or below them or 0 rated.
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby biass » 30 Mar 2017, 15:34

blodir rating +300 this rotation ayy lmao
Map thread: https://bit.ly/2PBsa5H

Petricpwnz wrote:biass on his campaign to cleanse and remake every single map of FAF because he is an untolerating reincarnation of mapping hitler
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby Mad`Mozart » 30 Mar 2017, 15:45

biass wrote:blodir rating +300 this rotation ayy lmao

He is already whoring the wilderness :D
All other maps been whored in past.
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Re: automatch/ladder map pool

Postby ZLO_RD » 30 Mar 2017, 16:11

last time i got roanoke with turin, he suggested draw.
really need veto system :D
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