Aeon: T1 subs or frigates

[Paisley]

Hi guys,

I am trying to learn a bit about navy gameplay and I always hear: Don't go T2 to fast, build frigates.
But i don't know, frigates just suck!? When the other player builds frigates two numbers decide. When he has T2 I can forget all frigates... and if he has subs frigates are useless?

I looked at the numbers and T1 subs are nearly equal mass/dps, so why not build just only T1 subs till getting to T2 navy?
I know they can't attack hover, but can't be attacked by anything but torps so focusing on navy only I think it's the better option?

Please tell me where I am wrong...

[JoonasTo]

T1 subs have no HP. Frigates are very cheap HP.

T1 subs can be decent for naval denial IF you don't have to contend with T2 navy, Torp Launchers, Torp ACU, Torp Bombers, T1 bombers(groundfired T1 bombers kill subs really easily, but not often seen in low level games) or, and this is most important, offensive frigates. One submarine takes long to kill one frigate, and in the time it does the frigate kills all of your engineers in naval production and probably one or two of your shore mexes.

Their main problem is lack of power projection outside of water. Aeon ones especially. If you invest in naval denial you want to get something out of it. Simply saying no ships for you isn't very profitable in the long run. Your enemy simply build up his eco on land while you build very expensive subs. Then he simply walks Engineers/acu to the edge of water and builds T1 torp launchers to drive away your subs. Or kills them all with air. Or ignores them completely and just hovers over them. If you had used frigates instead you could shoot at the engineers/acu trying to build the torp, they would have more hitpoints to last longer vs air bombardment, they could kill the hover. Not to mention they could have killed all the mexes your enemy has near the shore, forcing him to build PDs to protect them or give them up, giving you an economic advantage. He'd need to invest a lot more into getting back into the sea(T2 PD, multiple bombers, lots of hover, etc.), again, giving you an economic advantage.

Also fast T2 isn't necessarily wrong, it depends on the map and the opponent. If he doesn't build any navy, obviously fast T2 will allow you to kill all of his land infastructure due to better range than T1 navy. Aeon T2 subs also completely wipe out any T1 navy if you can fight on the open waters. 3 Destroyers also reliably counter a Cybran Torp commander with T2 that can overrun almost any amount of T1 navy.
The main problem with fast T2 is that you often see it mistakenly done on a small naval map while the enemy has frigate production in place that will simply sail to the dockyards unopposed and kill all the engineers, thus effectively denying any T2 navy ever getting into play.

PS. As aeon build T2 mobile shields to go with your destroyer, they can hover and cover your expensive destroyer with cheap Shield HP.

[keyser]

there is a lot of reason :
1st because their dps/mass is far better than subs => 0.25 for cybran frigate vs 0.10 for subs. (it's 2.5 more effective)
2nd their hp/mass is far better than subs => 7.6 for cybran frigate vs 1.5 for subs. (it's 5.2 more effective)

you can compare with destroyer too, frigate are way more efficient. (hp/mass and dps/mass)

this mean that a frigate under subs fire will be able to deal a lot of damage before going down. and also that frigate in high number can (sometime) close distance with a destro and shoot it down.

you can do an early subs spam, but it can be defended by torpedo defense into fast T2. Then destroyer will crush T1 subs.

map where T1 subs are good option, are map with under water mexx. Also some T1 subs can be nice, if you can micro them enough to kill 2-3 frigates, but it takes a really long time.
destro begin to be interesting when there is big frigate army facing each other. Then you can use destro to deal damage at range.


+ you need to add the radar on frigate.

[Iszh]

t1 subs are good for cybran and uef on maps like wilderness in 1v1. you have a counter to enemy hover, can attack base and deny enemy water. It is long time not possible to reach t2 naval there because of low mass. t1 subs have more range over water compared to frigates. Aeon for example have no over water gun exactly for this reason. They can attack with hover tanks like sera. A reason why sera has as well a bad t1 sub. T1 subs in normal seabattles with lots of mass are simply pointless. But please dont try to "fix" something here, they are simply for low mass maps and that should be like this it is fine. The maps where you can use them are not so many i know.

For normal seabattle where you can reach t2 in normal time <10min you dont need a lot of t1 subs maybe if your opponent tries to rush with com or himself spamming only subs. but still better go t2 and in the worst case do some torp launcher in your harbour. But a t1 frigate spam you need in big seabattles always no matter what faction no matter how big the battle is. Get lots of frigates they are your friends taking away lots of damage from your expensive ships.

[Darth_Google]

If you go for Aeon navy you might want invest into t2 land for shields and hoverflak later on. And note that their frigates are not only better than a subs but they also have more range compared to other frigs.

Not much more to add, frigs are a king but dont overbuild them. If the enemy gets any decent t2 navy when you get there with frigs it means you are gonna have a hard time.

[TheKoopa]

Aeon frigates have more range than other frigates

[Paisley]

Wow that was a lot of answers... thank you guys, now I see the case different!

But frigates can't attack subs at all, so I have to mix in subs I guess? how much?
I remember to play Setons and had a good amount of frigates, attacked the other navy production and find out I couldn't do anything against the 3-4 subs which where laying in the harbour...
Just thinking, what about Auroras? They don't have the HP from frigates, but good DPS and can't be attacked by subs? Could I protect water with auroras while going directly T2 navy?

I never build shields, now I will. but hover flak? The cruiser just freaking rocks, do I need anymore AA?

[Gorton]

Aurora will get shredded by frigates, don't use them as anti-navy.

The main thing about frigates is their ability to tank damage when you get to t2 navy stage - they have high hp and all frigates have low, in comparison, damage. This function is very useful and you can't just make only t2 navy.

At t1, aurora will do no damage and give vet and do no damage to the frigates. They're also very slow.

Your cruisers are great, but flak is much more effective at taking down t1/t2 stuff that flies above. Have some cruisers for radar and long range aa purposes, but they're expensive, do no damage to naval units and largely unneeded because of flak. You'll want them to take out t3 air though, so don't neglect them entirely.

[CookieNoob]

Just thinking, what about Auroras? They don't have the HP from frigates, but good DPS and can't be attacked by subs? Could I protect water with auroras while going directly T2 navy?

No. Auroras get shredded by frigates and are very slow on water.

going t2 land only for shields to portect t1 navy isnt really worth it. Protecting your valuable ships (destroyers, cruisers..) with shields however is. Keep in mind that you need to increase your power production to maintain the shields.

hover flak cant be attacked with torp bombers and has great AoE. It is also significantly cheaper than cruisers.

[edit]: damn you gorton, faster by a few seconds

[Paisley]

Again, thank you guys!

So last question: What about T1 subs to protect frigates from torps? As many as needed? (adapting to opponent?)