nano sera is op

[keyser]

Nano-Repair System:
Energy cost: 90000 → 42000
Mass cost: 2000 → 1200
Build time: 2800 → 1200
Health Regeneration: +75 → +60
Health: 6000 → 3000

this say all i guess

a replay added.
you can rush it pretty fast on T1 pgen, when you needed a T2 pgen at least.

And i don't really understand why it was changed since it was used. Not like uef nano that wasn't use.
now price divided by 2, health by 2, but regen is still super high.

and yes i know it was in beta since 2 month ago. But this is a proof that beta doesn't work.

[Farmsletje]

UEF nano not OP at all though. We have to keep that in the game

[Apofenas]

Sera nano has stats of old UEF nano(exept 3k hp bonus). So UEF nano was considered exensive/underused/useless/UP and new sera nano is suddenly cheap and OP? What a difference those 3k hp can make!

[Ithilis_Quo]

Zock complain that beta testers dont test stuff that should be in first place tested by zock itself.
I was say Zock multiple time that UEF nano(sera nano today) with 2000HP bonus is perfectli fine upgrade, where 3K hp is jast too much.It was ignored even when i do about 30 test game only on this and IceDremer have it tested multiple time in him balance mod. So it was tested it was consider as OP and still in game. :/

Apofenas that HP make a huge diferneces while you profit more from veterancy, and you life longer when can profit longer from regeneration.

[Zock]

Zock complain that beta testers dont test stuff that should be in first place tested by zock itself.
I was say Zock multiple time that UEF nano(sera nano today) with 2000HP bonus is perfectli fine upgrade, where 3K hp is jast too much.It was ignored even when i do about 30 test game only on this and IceDremer have it tested multiple time in him balance mod. So it was tested it was consider as OP and still in game. :/

Apofenas that HP make a huge diferneces while you profit more from veterancy, and you life longer when can profit longer from regeneration.

Yes, you told me uef nano should just get +2000 HP multiple times. You could tell it hundred times too, it won't help because there are also people who told me multiple times that uef nano is:
a) good as it is
b) already too strong and needs a nerf
c) needs at least X hp to be useful (ranging from 1000 to 5000)
d) needs no HP buff but a regen increase
e) needs a regen nerf
f) needs a cost decrease
g) etc.

Repeating it doesn't help.

What none of this people, including you, did was z) test it in beta (or now, if that's too much asked) and post some replays. So the values are based on opinions in the balance team, my/our own tests and by taking into account the best arguments about it in the public forum. Just yelling that change X is bad or change Y is better doesn't do much.

Apart from the fact that just because UEF nano could be good with 2000 bonus HP, doesn't mean that's what sera nano should have, even when it has the same price. There are far more factors influencing how strong something should be than pure cost.

Here you can see why keysers feedback is taken much more into account than yours and others. Though one replay against a weaker opponent doesn't say much, nano might be too strong or not, this replay is a good start but not enough to warrant a change yet. That needs more replays and of equal skilled opponents.

[keyser]

yes as i was going to say that i didn't realize how close it is to previous uef nano. And that only 1 replay isn't enough, and i will try to do it again against "stronger" opponent.

I kinda compared it to the old nano. And it seemed quite obvious that the change was good/too good to me.

i still don't understand why you changed it, because it wasn't that bad in the first place. (but i guess that's not that important, if we find a good balance)

will post more game in here later.

[Zock]

See patchnotes:

Several ACU upgrades got reduced cost to allow them to be built earlier and allow for more aggressive ACU action. Especially regarding the nerfs to the T2 upgrade last patch, which reduced the power of both, attacking and defending ACUs, this changes should give players who like to play more aggressive additional tools.

Very simplified, before you kind of had two lategame upgrades. Now one is midgame, one lategame to increase possible ACU use in different stages of the game.

[Apofenas]

Apofenas that HP make a huge diferneces while you profit more from veterancy, and you life longer when can profit longer from regeneration.

Hp boost is not my point. In the specific replay Keyser didn't even use that HP bonus. He just pushed forward, outregen all damage and kill opponent. There were no moments where his Com performed differently from what old UEF nano-gun could do, which as i told was considered expensive, useless, UP or underused.

So can someone show me the border between trash UEF nano and OP sera nano?

There is no problem with Sera nano. It is fine. The problem is the counter that cybran have...cough...don't have. I mentioned to Zock when he made these changes in beta that Cybran won't have counter to new combat ACUs. What Zock answered(source: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=13134):

I agree with being worried about cybran! I am too, and was going to look closely at the new ACUs and especially cybran one, since they don't have any new cheap upgrade, on top of their already existing weaknesses (low hp and no gun+t2).

i was considering to give cybran t2 (and also gun) the extra +500 (or even more) hp that they originally had over the other t2 upgrades back. But i wanted to wait and see if its necessary, as the cybran ACU being weaker than others is in my opinion a fair tradeoff for all their advantages - as long as its not too much. Other suggestions are welcome too though, but we have to see if it's really a problem or not before changing anything. Another idea was to give the 10 regen that got removed from t2 to stealth instead.

Funny thing, it was exactly 2 months ago at 14th of September. So, do something similiar like in Eq? Add like 500-1000 HP on gun upgrade, add like 15-20 hp/sec on stealth while increacing its cost?

[Ithilis_Quo]

Spoiler: show

What none of this people, including you, did was z) test it in beta (or now, if that's too much asked) and post some replays. So the values are based on opinions in the balance team, my/our own tests and by taking into account the best arguments about it in the public forum. Just yelling that change X is bad or change Y is better doesn't do much.

Apart from the fact that just because UEF nano could be good with 2000 bonus HP, doesn't mean that's what sera nano should have, even when it has the same price. There are far more factors influencing how strong something should be than pure cost.

Here you can see why keysers feedback is taken much more into account than yours and others. Though one replay against a weaker opponent doesn't say much, nano might be too strong or not, this replay is a good start but not enough to warrant a change yet. That needs more replays and of equal skilled opponents.

Ill do shitons of tests with uef nano, not in beta, yes but its pointles while point is same. Icedremer do also shitons of tests also not in beta, but point was same. We together do X time more tests with UEF nano as everyone else together, so we know about that more as some random folk that have theorycrafting opinion or play single game and have that feeling.


If you want some concrete replay, lets try this: 5412452
Basicly its UEF gun+nano ACU vs aeon double gun + shield acu (Aeon upgrades was more expensive and constantly drain 150e for shield). There was some tanks but this sitution was mosly betwen acu vs acu UEF one was hardly superior and kill Aeon whiteout any problems even when Aeon acu get shield recharg.

About Keyser replay its kinda non related situation to see how strong UEF nano is, while he will win combat even whiteout nano, while have biger army, full map control and acu dont get much dmg by enemy.

[Hzale]

compared to the new uef nano, the sera one has 33% higher stats (costs and output), if its op because you can still have it early and with t1 pgens, but 60hp/s is too much compared to 40 hp/s (uef one) maybe just make the sera one like the new uef nano.