debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

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I'd back a kickstarter for unleashing our FA Source Code

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debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby tatsu » 24 Oct 2016, 18:49

so I've debated the spoiler tagged idea below in Aeolus and as it turns out there may yet be an even easier way of doing things since we already have the source code.


I suggest getting Wargaming, Nordic, and Square Enix in a room, negotiate with them a deal where "If the source does exist, and that came to light, the person who has it wouldn't be held responsible for sourcing it, modify it and shipping the modification.

I think this could be a great idea especially considering this means we don't need to worry about the money for the source code in the first place anymore.

granted Square Enix only speaks dollars and this'll cost us total a grand sum of money but it isn't inconceivable.

also Nordic and wargaming stand to earn a lot by coming off as the good Samaritan in this event and getting countless good publicity articles written about them for it. I know it's probably too much to hope for but good negotiating could save us alot of precious $.

and this move of course would profit us most of all via the number of new players who'd be there simply because this cropped up in gaming news.

(the pastebin below contains the aeolus discussion i had)
Spoiler: show
so long as the game keeps being sold on steam and proceeds go to the IP holders (Nordic) and nothing is sold here on FAF everything FAF does such as modifying the game even eventually down the line compiling a game from edited source code is authorized so long as the people playing this modified game are only people who own FA.

and this is guaranteed because FA only launches it's patched version of FA once it recognizes the folder it's being pointed to as a FA install directory (from steam installation or CD installation).

so what I'm suggesting here is to push what we've been doing here as a community in FAF into overdrive.


tired of pathfinding causing unomptimal unit movement, this bumper-car behavior and units getting stuck?

tired of this game struggling on your single core and basically single thread where there is actually so much untapped potential?

tired of that one proposed balance idea/bugfix that everyone has agreed would be cool that IS. NOT. being refused in any way shape of form by anyone it just is hard coded into a non moddable region of the game-engine? (I seem to recall this was the case for carriers building while they move but if it's not I digress i'm sure there are other examples)

tired presenting this game to your friends and having them dismiss it as "ugly"?

well these are some of the things a kickstarter for Supcom source code could help with.

the money would be legally sworn off to purchasing the source code and dev time to implementing these things.

with it in the bag it could be a handy tool for setting up a new IP as well.

this kickstarter model would only get us so far but if a new IP was created and we accepted the concept of paying for it then the staggering difference in means would imply a much more powerful workforce. and potentially a much more satisfying experience.

This other IP would obviously be hosted on FAF as well and there are several reasons for this :
  • FAF would mean great mediatisation for this IP : "what's this a new tab in FAF ? a new game within FAF? oh i have to purchase this on steam first? oh and it's made by some FAF devs and an idea of the FAF community? shut up and take my money!"
    extrapolations aside, you see what I mean...
  • why fix what isn't broke? develop a whole new separate multiplayer system or reuse the existing one to save time? hmmmm...
  • both games would synergize drawing players to one another and pushing each other to better places

obviously this is part two of this and way waaaay down the line but if I didn't mention it I'd be omitting the argument that perhaps would motivate people the most into this.

the purpose of this post is to start a discussion around this idea, to become more informed (yes also about it's feasibility) and lastly to test the waters on this idea. I don't shy away from the idea of hosting the kickstarter myself in which case I'd front all my personal cash.

anyways I'm sure anyone with a decent understanding of code can appreciate that had supcom been released but a year later (and had it had extra cash) it might have featured multi-threading and multi core as these sorts of CPUs were only beginning to hit the market.

but the engine lacking these new techs doesn't make it un-elegant or un-optimized from the point of view of single thread computing.

and with the source code and after several months maybe of analyzing it we could devise a strategy to multi-thread and multi-core FA perhaps with today's compilers compiling to linux with either vulkan or openGL API is also not out of the picture.

I realize the linux bit is maybe stretching it but such APIs as vulkan or DirextX12 may lend themselves to an integration in such an engine as FA.

with such an API the engine would then scale much much better over the current-day hardware even if we were to demand even more from it.

oh and feel free to suggest names for what we could call this fantasy IP

I'll be honest I don't think square enix and nordic will let anything with "supreme", "commander" "forged" or "alliance" in the name slide so "FAF2" is off the cards and anything like "supreme commader 2, the real one" won't be accepted.

why not try to make the best of our sad lot in fate and not care about a silly name. names are what we make them into we should make a new name that shines in it's own right.

(I'm saying this because I see an IP purchase on top of the lot as something that's a big waste of money when that money could be going into dev time instead)
Last edited by tatsu on 24 Oct 2016, 20:33, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: testing the waters for a Supcom source-code kickstarter

Postby tatsu » 24 Oct 2016, 19:08

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Re: testing the waters for a Supcom source-code kickstarter

Postby Exotic_Retard » 24 Oct 2016, 20:10

unfortunately thats not how it really works.
the ip source and other stuff is extremely messed up and split.

on top of that the source code is lost - gpg doesnt have it anymore

there are more details but im not willing to disclose them on a public forum like that, but its pretty messed up and some people have put in quite some time to try and work out whats going on. simply buying source isnt possible, even if we do somehow get the money.
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Re: testing the waters for a Supcom source-code kickstarter

Postby tatsu » 24 Oct 2016, 20:29

Exotic_Retard wrote:unfortunately thats not how it really works.
the ip source and other stuff is extremely messed up and split.

on top of that the source code is lost - gpg doesnt have it anymore

there are more details but im not willing to disclose them on a public forum like that, but its pretty messed up and some people have put in quite some time to try and work out whats going on. simply buying source isnt possible, even if we do somehow get the money.

read edited OP and pasted aeolus conversation :)
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Re: debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby Aulex » 24 Oct 2016, 21:39

Let's assume we get the money for the kickstarter, and miraculously dig up and acquire the source code. What then? We don't have enough devs. Rereading and understanding the source of a massive game engine is not a trivial matter, let alone implementing improved multithreading (it's already built for 4 cores right now http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gd ... 6589i2.ppt)
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Re: debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby Sheeo » 24 Oct 2016, 22:32

I wouldn't back a kickstarter that hasn't already discussed a price for the relevant IP from the current holders.
Support FAF on patreon: https://www.patreon.com/faf?ty=h

Peek at our continued development on github: https://github.com/FAForever
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Re: debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby tatsu » 24 Oct 2016, 22:36

Sheeo wrote:I wouldn't back a kickstarter that hasn't already discussed a price for the relevant IP from the current holders.

well yeah the point of this thread is the preamble to a debate leading up to a consortium allowing a consensus of a ..... you get the idea

I can be a negative nancy too you know.

can people no longer talk?

is "show me ur tits" all people know how to say any longer?

you of all people should be fed up with this sort of response

no I won't pull a magic number out of my hat wait for us to figure it out first. plus an important factor in this is to be strategical about it. we wanna pay the lowest possible sum. a kickstarter isn't exactly down-low especially if it is starting to pan out into a success I even deem this thread not to be sufficiently down low but I've gotta debate it with the community first. but one of the possible angles of attack would be to close the deal with the guys first holding the worth of their goods to their lowest as the demand would be at the lowest and then to hold the kickstarter to reimburse the loan that paid all this and pay pro devs for maybe a year or a higher sum if we estimate a year not to be enough.

but shouting out a number and bringing it home with the kickstarter then expect for the concerned to accept anything lower than that number is foolish of course they'll negotiate at that number if they know that's how much they can get max (and each of the three)

so please understand that this isn't something you do brazenly you need to first lay out the doability the strategy and the means. and also you need to get everyone on fucking board which believe it or not you guys make out to be the hardest bit of all congrats!
Last edited by tatsu on 24 Oct 2016, 23:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby tatsu » 24 Oct 2016, 22:45

Aulex wrote:Let's assume we get the money for the kickstarter, and miraculously dig up and acquire the source code. What then? We don't have enough devs. Rereading and understanding the source of a massive game engine is not a trivial matter, let alone implementing improved multithreading (it's already built for 4 cores right now http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gd ... 6589i2.ppt)

the usage of cores is sub-optimal as we know by now.
The various blogs and rants of different personalities of the sim pro RTS game world already give some sort of insight as to what it is sup com is doing wrong when it comes to spreading the load and asynchronous compute (as well as offloading some sim elements to the GPU)

as I said very clearly in the OP having paid professional devs(not only taking the current FAF devs it's not to undermine but the guys who worked on supcom do have somewhat of a deeper knowledge of game engine dev so them or people like them would be what we would need to hire. this was said in the OP) analyzing the source code to get up to speed and to devise a plan to change the architecture so as to multi thread would take months on its own in a good scenario. implementing might take a year.

I think we're all willing. this is FA Forever after all ;)

and while we're here might as well make it better.
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Re: debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby escii » 25 Oct 2016, 10:55

Do we clearly know who owns the source currently?

What about asking them to put it under GPL or another open source licence?
Pumpkin Studios did that with Warzone 2100 and it's still alive.
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Re: debating unclogging the supcom source code and FAF

Postby SpoCk0nd0pe » 25 Oct 2016, 12:56

This is basically a good idea. Even if FAF does not have enough developer time at the moment, from experience there are many people out there interested in working on such projects. This community has an attitude problem though, that could drive dedicated people away.

I wouldn't get my hopes up regarding multi threading though. That would probably require a complete rewrite and a switch to dx12 or Vulkan.
Assuming the slowdown happens for the same reasons it happens in most open ended simulations like this (cache misses), simply upgrading the compiler and compile in 64 bit could yield decent performance improvements.
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