The new map rotation for the ladder

Talk about general things concerning Forged Alliance Forever.

Moderators: FtXCommando, Ze Dogfather

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Valki » 23 Jul 2015, 11:43

The two systems could exist parallel in a dominant-recessive way (like genes).
I call the current system "Custom Map Selection" (denoted "c"), the new system "Map pool" (denoted "M").

If both players have opted for "Custom map selection", then the selection is "cc" --> Custom Map Selection.
If one player has opted for "Custom map selection", then the selection is "Mc" --> Map pool
(No players = "MM" --> Map pool)

I can understand Mad_Mozart doesn't want to fight Aulex on a 5x5 map, but if I get matched against Mad_Mozart it had better be a 5x5 map so its over quickly :P
Valki
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 237
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 18:03
Has liked: 9 times
Been liked: 27 times
FAF User Name: Valki

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Mad`Mozart » 23 Jul 2015, 11:49

Vee wrote:
This is why a personal map selection is better than a small pool: now Mozart and TA have to play 5x5 maps against each other, even though neither of them likes 5x5 maps. Meanwhile other players aren't happy because now 80% of the maps are 10x10 and 20x20...

BTW, cobalt is such a good 5x5 map because it's not actually 5x5 ;-)

Sorry for being too rude but this is a load of crap.
I never said anything against play 5km maps here, i actually dont mind at all as long as we have fair and working ladder now.

Also i think people who are crying about not being able to play 5km maps all the time now are simply selfish. I wasnt able to play my preferred maps before even half the time and still was ok with it, you can manage too. After all, i can throw back a custom game arguement at you too, can play all your 5km maps there if you want so.
This pool is oriented to suit all kind of players. And its supposed to be a competitive game mode so it actually makes sense that its not cut out to be noob friendly. Yes we should solution for new players who struggle with the game, but those who simply prefer 5km maps over anything else or dont have time or other excuse should still play normal ladder which is fair for everyone.
Mad`Mozart
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: 10 Mar 2013, 19:09
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 431 times

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Fast-Thick-Pants » 23 Jul 2015, 12:26

Sorry, I've removed my post it was not my intention to be seen as bashing Mozart or hating.
Last edited by Fast-Thick-Pants on 23 Jul 2015, 15:12, edited 3 times in total.
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
User avatar
Fast-Thick-Pants
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 04 Jul 2015, 09:56
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 27 times
FAF User Name: Blimey

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby BrutalMoustache » 23 Jul 2015, 14:11

Wow,

This hate and Mozart bashing is insane. A smaller map pool is a great idea as it will make the games less random and therefore make the 1v1 ladder rating system more accurate. I am against BO whoring, but with enough games and BO whores people will use counters to BO whoring (like bomber/jester rushes) and then the games will be much more dynamic.

I don't like how some players are better than others on some maps, but it happens. I could go toe to toe with people up to 300 more rating than me on Red Rocks and Vya 3, which was fun, and other maps I would get bulldozed by 1200 players, which was not. It made my rating very volatile. Less maps will solve this problem and result in games with people of your actual skill level.

Of course no one can be happy with the map pool (hell, I've got some problems with it), but that is why there is a nice rotation for variety -- although I would be happy to see more maps in rotation for the current periods, or just a more frequent rotation. I don't like the idea of a set pool for a season, as it will get boring with the same maps constantly.

However, overall I'm more comfortable pressing the ladder button now because I know what maps I will get.

In regards to the whole 5x5 map issue. BLASTED ROCK!!! <-- atleast in rotation; it is a classic and the hydro placements make it a complex map for a 5x5. Other than that I'm against too much 5x5 because it increases rating volatility.

Great work, but we need to see how this all unfolds before changing anything -- just because people are complaining doesn't mean it is a bad idea :)
User avatar
BrutalMoustache
Crusader
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 20 Feb 2015, 20:30
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 3 times
FAF User Name: BrutalMoustache

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Rogueleader89 » 23 Jul 2015, 14:49

Two quick things, first does the select map feature still have a function or is this just completely random now? I'm guessing the latter, but if its the former how does it function now?

Second, going to second the few people who have asked for sera glaciers back (or at least in rotation..).



Otherwise general thoughts... not a huge fan of the new map selection, I mean if I had to pick only 12 maps its a fine selection, but really the main problem with the map pool before was less size and more overlapping selection between players and the lack of hard vetoes, sure there were some awful maps (which vary dramatically depending on who you ask :P), but in large part a selection overhaul seems like it would have worked better. That said, I'll try it a bit the next couple weeks and see if my opinion changes (initial thoughts though are that there should be a bit fewer core maps and more weekly rotating maps for sake of not playing the same 8 core maps constantly..)

As to the scattering of suggestions people have made that you split the ladder pool into rating categories or have some kind of checkbox that opens up to more maps... I vehemently oppose both of these, rating categories just means that I'm forced to play on certain maps you think are fit for my rating whether I like them or not and then when I manage to move up a category I get hit with a massive skill barrier as I have to face people who have been playing frequently on this completely different map pool I'm not familiar with.

The checkbox to open more maps idea is basically just recreating the old map pool's problem without offering you choice as to what those overlapping maps are, either have a big pool and give people a set number of vetoes for maps they absolutely despise, or have a small pool with frequent rotation, but it should be one pool for everyone.

but meh, I don't play ladder a ton anymore (and hardly get on faf much lately anyway), so just my 2 cents.
Rogueleader89
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 130
Joined: 15 Jan 2014, 08:22
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 26 times
FAF User Name: JadeXyan

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Morax » 23 Jul 2015, 15:08

Based on what I've read so far I think the best solution is as follows:

Create 2 ladders:

1) Competitive where the current map pool (the ~12 maps with rotation) is used

2) Casual matchmaker where people who "don't have time to play much" or "hate learning actual complex BOs and strategy" can play all the maps they want to see
Last edited by Morax on 23 Jul 2015, 15:08, edited 1 time in total.
Maps and Modifications Councilor

M&M Discord Channel

Come join us and help create content with the artists of FAF.
User avatar
Morax
Councillor - Maps and Mods
 
Posts: 2859
Joined: 25 Jul 2014, 18:00
Has liked: 1160 times
Been liked: 657 times
FAF User Name: Morax

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Sir Prize » 23 Jul 2015, 15:08

I think possibly an opt-in option might be necessary eventually around either an expanded map pool or (more likely) the 5km maps, depending on how the rage builds as 700-1200s (maybe others?) start to realise they're not getting they're favourite maps because they're no longer in the pool.

Add at least three 5km maps soon for the good of the casual ladder players, some good options IMO:
Esgaroth Ruins,
Crimson Feud,
Blasted Rock (I should really hate this map but I just don't :oops: and I've had some great games on it),
Canis River,
Desert Arena, and
maybe Summer Duel (still kinda rush/draw bait, but I've had/seen a lot of intense matches on it and if you use the secondary fronts you can get an advantage), or
maybe Sentry Point (similar to Summer Duel, it shouldn't play like draw bait given the expansions in the south, but unfortunately does due to the close spawns, so maybe not).

Some bad ones:
Finns Revenge (technically a 10km, but played on half the map so plays like a 5km 99% of the time and awful ACU-in-water-cheese and/or hoverspam OP 95% of the time),
Ambush Pass,
Monaki,
Crag Dunes (all are first bomber bait due to obstacles in the middle for land, but not air),
Winter Duel (more draws than strategic decisions, hellnaw),
Balvery Mountains (slightly better than Winter Duel for draws but the mountain range helps first bomber a lot), and
Desert Joust (slight first-bomber bait, also silly amounts of game-deciding central reclaim).

I think first bomber should be viable, which it is on basically all 5km maps, but not borderline uncounterable when someone's well-practiced at it. Bear in mind it trolls people and they stop playing ladder, so it doesn't need any encouragement.

If this post reads like a negative, my bad: great work TA, this will make ladder players better at the game, have more close matches and reduces rage-inducing moments on spawn in for people like me :). I'm sure I'm going to search ladder more now. It's better to have a smaller pool so people don't get owned based on map (in)experience. I've found I actually have better luck beating pros/better players on popular maps, because I know how to play them too and can get underestimated. So a smaller pool should also be a positive for lower ranked players - it's not just a "pro" move. Keep being responsive to people's problems for the next little while, which it looks like you will do given you are likely to re-add some decent 5km maps.

In the future I would love to see Cobalt Valley, Syrtis Major, Badlands, Loki in the next core group when you do rotate it. Also, Niflheim is pretty seriously imbalanced in favour of top spawn unfortunately, a mapper should fix it because it SHOULD be good. I'm also not a fan of Sera Outpost (sorry speed, it's the jamming, but I really do appreciate the work you put in) or EOTS (it's MUCH more hated than any of the maps I just listed that I'd like to see in the next core pool).

I hope Seton's Clutch (central reclaim, people hate it), Open Waters (comrush/hoverspam OP) or any of the 5km maps I listed don't get anywhere near the map pool.

Also I just asked Sheeo in #aeolus - map selection doesn't work anymore for those of you (like me) who were wondering. Personally, I'd like to give people one or two vetoes.
User avatar
Sir Prize
Evaluator
 
Posts: 573
Joined: 24 May 2014, 10:29
Has liked: 77 times
Been liked: 91 times
FAF User Name: Sir-Prize

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Iszh » 23 Jul 2015, 15:20

Morax wrote:Based on what I've read so far I think the best solution is as follows:

Create 2 ladders:

1) Competitive where the current map pool (the ~12 maps with rotation) is used

2) Casual matchmaker where people who "don't have time to play much" or "hate learning actual complex BOs and strategy" can play all the maps they want to see


And the casual matchmaker will be the old ladder system and affect global rating. Matchmaker for 2v2 3v3 4v4 to be added later ;)

So you will have 2 options
1. press ranked game on ladder map pool for 1v1 rating
2. press global 1v1 game with old map chosing system of zep (variation of custom game)
User avatar
Iszh
Evaluator
 
Posts: 827
Joined: 26 Apr 2012, 08:51
Has liked: 116 times
Been liked: 126 times
FAF User Name: Iszh

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Morax » 23 Jul 2015, 15:24

Iszh wrote:And the casual matchmaker will be the old ladder system and affect global rating. Matchmaker for 2v2 3v3 4v4 to be added later ;)

So you will have 2 options
1. press ranked game on ladder map pool for 1v1 rating
2. press global 1v1 game with old map chosing system of zep (variation of custom game)


Actually I would really like to see global only affect team games rather 1v1 at all.

The WWPC 1v1 has a really frustrating issue where we can't decide how to separate the divisions as the 1v1 custom games affect global rating and people area matched based on their ladder rating.

Last I spoke to the upper office it was said that custom 1v1s would start to affect ladder rating! I want that!
Maps and Modifications Councilor

M&M Discord Channel

Come join us and help create content with the artists of FAF.
User avatar
Morax
Councillor - Maps and Mods
 
Posts: 2859
Joined: 25 Jul 2014, 18:00
Has liked: 1160 times
Been liked: 657 times
FAF User Name: Morax

Re: The new map rotation for the ladder

Postby Sir Prize » 23 Jul 2015, 15:30

I think splitting ladders might hurt us unless the ladders were integrated - ie if you search "casual" you might get someone searching the "pro" ladder on one of those maps. Otherwise we don't have the players for two ladders. If I'm wrong and we do have the players then it's fine by me, but even at 1400 rating I can search for 5-10 mins without a game, or only get the guys with 5 games played that the server hasn't rated properly yet.

And yeah, like Morax said, bring on all rated 1v1s affecting what is currently ladder rating instead of global :)
User avatar
Sir Prize
Evaluator
 
Posts: 573
Joined: 24 May 2014, 10:29
Has liked: 77 times
Been liked: 91 times
FAF User Name: Sir-Prize

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest