Can we finally ban ecomanager?

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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby keyser » 11 Sep 2019, 22:38

It requires that this mod contains 2 different types of help.

The not automated help : which is better display of the mexx tech and upgrade (you know easily which mexx upgrade) ; also what morax described as the ability to upgrade your eco with minimal amount of apm.

The automated help : auto-upgrade of mexx and e throttle.

I've often advocated for forbidding the automated help. Although i can understand the person that want to apply it only on mass fab, since it can be annoying to balance the e drain with them. The not automated help, is on the other hand, really helpful but shouldn't be in any case forbidden to use.

Any it's impossible to ban a mod. I guess you can watch replay/stream and spot a user using a banned mod and then report him ; but you can't prevent them from using the mod, they can just change the mod UID.
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby Farmsletje » 11 Sep 2019, 22:42

'e please' is a way bigger offender than ecomanager is.

But like keyser said it's impossible to ban it so you just got to live with it
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby Cuddles » 12 Sep 2019, 12:43

I know that guy is cheating because i'm cheating and he beat me!
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby Steel_Panther » 12 Sep 2019, 15:22

I agree that the mod has some pros and cons, as have been noted already, but I use it since I think it provides an overall a net benefit. The negative part is that you cannot control which production is throttled. I'll never know why it decided to prioritize my acu upgrade over pgen production, but for that type of reason you end up fighting the mod and doing the exact same thing you would have anyway, as Thau said.

Yes, if you just learned to balance your eco better then you would be better off anyway. However, in team games especially it is a lot easier to have the throttling automatic because there is often a significant amount of energy overflow, which also can fluctuate a lot. So you don't have to keep going back and pausing various amounts of production based on how much overflow is changing. In the late game it makes using mass fabs so much better.

So I would just say that it gives a small advantage overall, but is just a nice convenience. Maybe not worth banning, but I can see the argument why it is unfair as well.
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby speed2 » 12 Sep 2019, 20:53

This topic again...
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby UnorthodoxBox » 13 Sep 2019, 01:46

In all of the setons game so far, I have seen various (horrible) things from 1500+ players that use eco manager. Certain things include:

-Dropping 6 engineers for a proxy, and the engineers are constantly paused by the mod because of a -60 power stall, so they don't even finish a single factory before a bomber kills them 40 seconds after they landed.
-Rushing a nuke defense (silo construction) after finding an enemy nuke, and the power stall causes the silo to take anywhere from an extra 30 seconds to 2 minutes to complete, depending on how fast it would have been built without the engies pausing.
-Someone making teleporter as a last-ditch effort, but even with everything paused, they have no power, so the mod just pauses and unpauses the acu, even though nothing else (but mexes) are using power.
-Ctrl k-ing t2 mexes to make t3 mexes, and a -200 or less power stall causes the engineers to pause, which makes ctrl k-ing t2 mexex absolutely trash, since it just becomes a waste of mass.
-(as thau said) Air factories being paused when the thing that is needed the most is more interceptors/asf.

If the mod is gonna be banned, it should be because it is utter garbage, not because it is strong.
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby biass » 13 Sep 2019, 10:29

speed2 wrote:This topic again...
Bask in awe of what once was: http://bit.ly/2qubD3l

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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby Viba » 13 Sep 2019, 16:44

Only thing the throttling is actually good for IMO is pausing mass fabs when you are about to run out of energy. Besides that I'm usually too lazy to turn the throttling off and suffer of the points Box mentioned previously among some others, imagine your ACU NEEDS to make a PD immediately, but instead gets paused...

I'd simply state that using the throttling function doesn't make you a better player and EcoManager is not the reason why you lost to player X, period.
It is not productive trying to shift the blame of player's own shortcomings to some UI mods that have some fantasy-like imagined hypermega advantage which is in reality close to nonexistent :)

Only real benefit using EM to me is the various UI elements it provides, auto unpause mex on assist, overlays and such.

EDIT:
I just recalled when playing around in the 600-1000 rating range, EM had some close to "cult" status dripping down to lower rated players from the 1000-1200 rated guys, that "EM" is magic and you get much better by using it. In reality this is just false and eventually when players improve they also realize this.
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby Steel_Panther » 13 Sep 2019, 18:01

UnorthodoxBox wrote:In all of the setons game so far, I have seen various (horrible) things from 1500+ players that use eco manager. Certain things include:


-Ctrl k-ing t2 mexes to make t3 mexes, and a -200 or less power stall causes the engineers to pause, which makes ctrl k-ing t2 mexex absolutely trash, since it just becomes a waste of mass.

If the mod is gonna be banned, it should be because it is utter garbage, not because it is strong.


Particularly for that example, which has happened to me before (SHAME!), I noticed it was typically because i was upgrading another t3 mex at the same time. My understanding was that the mod would calculate and figure out the most efficient order to use your buildpower to upgrade mexes, so if it paused one upgrade while you had the upgrade queued it was because it decided it was better to finish off the other mex first?

Then, it shows you were inefficient and wrong in starting the second mex upgrade so soon, but wouldn't the mod still be helping you do it more efficiently than you were going to be doing it anyway? I'm not 100% sure how it operates though. (I have seen this happen when mass stalling rather than e stalling, but I think it would operate the same either way, that it just tries to maximize mass output?)

The absolute worst, though, is when it pauses engies building t1 mexes...
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Re: Can we finally ban ecomanager?

Postby keyser » 14 Sep 2019, 00:02

Steel_Panther wrote:
UnorthodoxBox wrote:In all of the setons game so far, I have seen various (horrible) things from 1500+ players that use eco manager. Certain things include:


-Ctrl k-ing t2 mexes to make t3 mexes, and a -200 or less power stall causes the engineers to pause, which makes ctrl k-ing t2 mexex absolutely trash, since it just becomes a waste of mass.

If the mod is gonna be banned, it should be because it is utter garbage, not because it is strong.


Particularly for that example, which has happened to me before (SHAME!), I noticed it was typically because i was upgrading another t3 mex at the same time. My understanding was that the mod would calculate and figure out the most efficient order to use your buildpower to upgrade mexes, so if it paused one upgrade while you had the upgrade queued it was because it decided it was better to finish off the other mex first?

Then, it shows you were inefficient and wrong in starting the second mex upgrade so soon, but wouldn't the mod still be helping you do it more efficiently than you were going to be doing it anyway? I'm not 100% sure how it operates though. (I have seen this happen when mass stalling rather than e stalling, but I think it would operate the same either way, that it just tries to maximize mass output?)

The absolute worst, though, is when it pauses engies building t1 mexes...


Pretty sure the mod doesn't know what it is pausing. It just pause stuff that takes a lot of e to make mexx work at 100% all the time.
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