Land Unit balance

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

Moderators: Softly, pip, Brute51, CookieNoob, JJ173, Moritz

Land Unit balance

Postby Softly » 22 Jun 2012, 12:47

Firstly I'd like to say its great to be able to (I hope) help with the nomads project.

Having only played with nomads for the first time yesterday, I'll hope you all forgive my relative ignorance of what may be already covered ground as far as balance discussions are concerned, but these are the things which I would tweak having gleaned some initial impressions.

T1 AA/arty; I'd nerf its aa damage by 2 dps to bring it to 18 dps. This would make it closer to other t1 aa in terms of anti air effectiveness per unit, and means that the extra mass per unit that you're paying largely goes to the artillery ability.
On top of this I would reduce cost of the unit by 2 mass, and build time by 10, so that the nerf on dps doesn't mean that its use as aa only isn't too expensive and time consuming when compared to other factions aa units. This still leaves it as slightly less effective as an aa piece, but I see this as a necessary price for the extra arty ability.
For comparison, other aa costs 28 mass, build time 140, and does 16 dps vs air, the nomad one would cost 34 mass, build time 170 and do 18 dps vs air if the changes above were implemented.

T2 Goliath; I like the idea of this unit as a 't2 lab', although I don't think it has the power to compete with other units on the battlefield. Labs at t1 don't see use after a couple of minutes into the game, as they are simply ineffective against anything except engineers, and if this balancing is carried to this unit, I fear it wouldn't see any use at all.
My solution would be to increase the projectile damage from 110 to 150, so that it can kill any t1 tank in two shots. As it stands, 3 t1 tanks can beat it (excluding any micro), with the t1 costing less. By making it a 2 shot kill on t1 rather than a 3 shot kill, it becomes effective as a mobile t2 rush to beat t1, while remaining vulnerable to other t2 units thanks to its low range and health. It would still remain however a raiding unit, as engagements with large groups of t1 would still be ineffective.

T2 aa; I think its broadly comparable to other factions, though I would slightly increase its damage radius from 3 to 3.5, as other t2 aa has damage radius 4. I think this is probably needed, despite its slightly higher projectile speed, as it does have about 10% less damage than other t2 mobile aa.

The unit I think needs nerfing at t2 is the mobile missile defense, as per unit mass its currently much more effective than stationary pieces (though I concede this is disregarding associated costs to each like t2 fac+engies, or t2 upgrade on com).
I'd suggest that 1 projectile every 3.5 seconds would be more reasonable than 1 projectile every 2 seconds.

T3 Tank; As it stands, I don't think the t3 tank is in any way cost effective against other t3. it has less total dps, and less health per unit mass than other factions units. As a standalone balance, I would suggest swapping the ranges on its weapons, so that it has 200 dps at 35 range and an extra 120 dps at 25 range rather than the other way around. The solution however (I beleieve) needs to be done joint with the beamer assault tank. Imo at the moment, the nomads have no really effective unit compared to other factions between its t1 tanks and its ultra heavy tank.
Its t2 main tank costs more than comparable units because its amphibious, and the t3 tank needs a buff as described above, while the beamer I think at the moment is rubbish.

Take the Beamer vs bricks for example.
Coming in at a cost of just over 9 bricks, the only advantage the beamer has is that it is slightly quicker. Apart from that it has less range, the damage of only about 5 bricks (though I acknowledge it won't suffer from the same kind of dps drop off as the bricks in an encounter), and less health than 3 bricks.

An individual solution to the beamers problem would I beleive be to increase its range to 35 (or slightly higher), increase movement to 3.5, and drop the cost to around 9000 mass (from over 11000!).

Coming back to the point of a joint solution however, instead of the changes to the t3 tank and the beamer detailed above, perhaps the t3 tanks cost and power be cut to put it in the range of titans and loyalists, while increasing the damage and health of the beamer (leaving the mass unchanged), so it becomes a heavier more expensive equivalent to bricks and percies.

Finally, the experimental heavy tank and the missile tank both (imho) need a nerf, the missile tank especially. I like the idea of the missile tank, but it is simply too strong for its cost at the moment. I've not really thought of a neat solution yet, but maybe I'll have more ideas soon.

Well thats me finished thinking about balance, and I think this is the point for me to say that overall I think its is looking amazing and I can't wait to see it finished, I hope I haven't sounded too critical because the vast majority of land units I think are well balanced, and where I've made suggestions I think of it as fine tuning.

Also a disclaimer- the suggestions I've made, while being picked up as issues in game, are based almost entirely on the accuracy of the units db for the nomads, and I'm well aware that as a beta that it is in the process of balancing an so some things I've quoted may not be entirely correct.

More to come on air and navy I hope, feel free to disagree and sorry this post was so long :oops:
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby FunkOff » 22 Jun 2012, 15:21

Why would you suggest nerfing their strengths and buffing their weaknesses? Let's preserve faction diversity as much as we can.

You should only consider a change necessary when the sum of the nomads faction cannot effectively deal with a specific threat.
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby Softly » 22 Jun 2012, 16:33

I agree with the above comment on faction diversity, and I think that simply the type of units does a lot to aid that, the t1 sniper bot for example.

Neither am I suggesting that all these changes be immediately implemented, discussion is what the forum is for.

I am however suggesting some hopefully small changes to polish off the effectiveness of all nomad units, so we don't reach the stage where if the opponent uses xyz tactic, then there is only one counter available. We want a variety of approaches to be useful in all circumstances, so the game doesn't become predictable and boring for those involved.

My first priority at the moment is balanced play, though I recognise not all my suggested changes are necessarily the right ones. If there's any specifics you could mention then please do. As mentioned in my post, I am new to the nomads and have yet to meet their whole range of units in all circumstances.
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby Brute51 » 22 Jun 2012, 19:34

Thanks for your input. I'm sure our balancer (which isn't me) will consider all you've said. Regarding the Beamer, it has one neat little feature you might have missed so far. It can be transported by the experimental transport and can fire while in the air. The Comet (exp. transport) can also transport the Crawler (missile tank) by the way.
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby pip » 22 Jun 2012, 22:52

It's good to see the faction played, and some feedback: that's what a beta is all about.

It's still a work in progress, so don't think units stats are set in stone just yet, especially the ones you clearly see as placeholders.

Some information about the current "goliath" : even if it may not look so, it's currently a placeholder too. When the model of the main t2 tank is done, I think the current amphibious t2 tank will become the fast assault tank, replacing the goliath. It will have different stats and weapons (maybe dual Asator weapon), and will be amphibious. I don't know what the main t2 tank will be like, but it will be the backbone of the Nomads army, so don't worry too much about the t2 land balance for now, it's not definitive.

Be sure to have fun in game, not only in the database, and keep posting your feedback!
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby Softly » 23 Jun 2012, 00:04

I had a quick go with transporting the beamer, I didn't realise it could fire in the air though (nice!).
It didn't seem to fire properly after it was dropped off though, but that may be just my bad micro :)

Edit
As far as the Goliath is concerned I think its a really nice unit, it fills a niche that the other factions just don't have. It easily outpaces other t2, and I really hope we can find a way to keep it in the final nomads unit list.

Also if I'm on FAF, then consider me fair game for balance tests :!:
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby pip » 23 Jun 2012, 07:41

I also like the Goliath, but the lead dev thinks a bot is out of place in the Nomads arsenal (it's the only one except ACU and SCU). The niche role of the unit will stay the same, but the model will be dropped.
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby pulli » 24 Jul 2012, 17:09

hello

we tested some units today.

It seems some nomads units are bit strong atm

here the replay:
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby Ze_PilOt » 24 Jul 2012, 17:23

Maybe explain what must be watched carefully in the replay, and what things you find weird ?
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Re: Land Unit balance

Postby pulli » 24 Jul 2012, 22:34

Ze_PilOt wrote:Maybe explain what must be watched carefully in the replay, and what things you find weird ?



yes true.. sry forgot that

What do you see in this test?
- we let fight some nomad armies vs regular fraction armies.

- the "question" for this test was: where are the nomads weak?

- this test is not realy meaningful, coz it doesent shows "real" FA situations
- but we are new here in nomads and wanted have a little impression

maybe are:
- the t1 land units bit strong
- the t2 land units bit strong
- the t3 nomad tanks too strong vs harbs
- the beamer bit too strong/cheap
- et cetera

our first impression is summarized (+ games we made beside this test)
- the nomads are generell bit too strong

quess it doesent make sense to explain or analyse more for this replay -> i need much more games (1v1 + teamgames) for making more concret and differentiated statements

But i also want to say, that the nomads making fun to play with them and vs. them. They looking awesome and i dident found fatally bugs yet.
Im curious for the new update :)

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