SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

[Ithilis_Quo]

It is similar as rush TML on ACU, teamates join effort what destroy your eco (when do it alone) and then enemy eco by TMLing on end of T1 you dont get 40 K energy so easy. It is -350E/sec for 115second, so you need build 17T1 pgen only for build this upg and then would had +10energy.
Or get 2x Estorages +500mass and build it with 3long pause. Of course with more player you get it easier, but thats a point gain new tricky feature for player who play tricky strategies.

Example 4 ppl join efort on small RAS:
-87,5energy for all for 2 minute = must build 4,375Pgen more =330mass invest or 2 minute be behind with production, when end it all get +100 energy what is 12,5 more like he invest in start. for 2 minute behind with production. He reclaim thay 4,375pgens and get 80%back = 260mass. It is nearly mass uneffective to get.


energy gain can be +300 for 800 mass cost, then would had not so big impact, and would it be more risky. It is hard to say that it would be unbalanced, i read so many threat about unbalanced acu with TML, or about advanced RAS on sera/aeon what you get total free and it is unbalanced? with tml acu with luck you can destroy 8 mex on Wonder and easy win game only with this.
when you destroy at least 2 T2 mex it pay themself. This ras so not so effective, it give nomad posibility to had T2technology faster.

nomad are weak on end teching period, thay had 2,75 tech units on T3 and 3,5tech units on Exp. That is not bad, dont want to change it, but this small ras can help them go on this pahase faster because when this pahase would be done nomad would be behind.

[Apofenas]

Another point against it is that t2 air doesn't rquire a lot of power. Mass means more. It isn't ASF that costs 40k power, it's t2 fighter/bomber that costs like 8k power, which is 4 t1 interceptors or bombers. That is quite easily to get on t1 pgens. Honestly, to invest 40k power for RAS to get "early" t2 fighter/bomber that costs 8k power...

This upgrade is either gonna be usefull and unbalanced or useless but balanced.

[Ithilis_Quo]

T2 bomber drain -7mass and -140energy.
Yes mass is bigger problem as energy, but you need build power for T2 air. whitotu T2Pgen it is pain (you need 7T1pgen = 525mass T2 is mutch better choice) and fast T2 bomber can had similar effect as T3 bomber, especialy nomad one who is faster like others.

That help make acu upgrades too, and kik economi slithly up, when you decide for it. I realy dont want to had it OP but you are in defense position because it is new option and no-one else had it.

Look on Gun upgrade, you pay 500 mass and 15 000 energy (aeon) and that win your game when your oponent dont had gun, It is OP? definitly is, you must deal with option that this can happend )
Or somone is teching and you come with spam.. he die, becasue invset reasource to tech and not to units, this mean that you invest reasources to eco, where you gain time advantage, but not reasource advantage. So you can make it on situation where you feel safe and kick you eco UP faster, but it will be bigger pain for you when you will feel safe and would not be.


but is need handle with number.
one posibility can be make longer build time to disloke ACU for long time, = need engieners, and acu is unusable in parth of game where is fine had acu on fight. Then it would be even more risky and would need better cover. (but would not be so big pain for economy)

[Apofenas]

T2 bomber drain -7mass and -140energy.
Yes mass is bigger problem as energy, but you need build power for T2 air. whitotu T2Pgen it is pain (you need 7T1pgen = 525mass T2 is mutch better choice) and fast T2 bomber can had similar effect as T3 bomber, especialy nomad one who is faster like others.

That help make acu upgrades too, and kik economi slithly up, when you decide for it. I realy dont want to had it OP but you are in defense position because it is new option and no-one else had it.

That's the point: no-one else had it, because it's useless when it's balanced. If you get the 40e for such upgrade, you have enough of it to just put t2 and gun instead, and that's already enough power for 5 early bombers.

If you make lower cost/higher outcome, you make it hardly unbalanced; if you make higher cost/lower outcome, you make it useless.

This RAS has nothing to do in this game.

[Apofenas]

*sent 2 times because of connection issue. Deleted.

[Brute51]

So what would be your recommendations concerning SCU presets? Please keep it clear and short (few words).

[Apofenas]

So what would be your recommendations concerning SCU presets? Please keep it clear and short (few words).

Can't really make it short.

SCU presets have to be specialised, usefull and take part in t3 land balance,it's cheaper to get those.

My suggestion would be to save most usefull presets:
-Regular preset
-Engineer preset
-Gunslinger preset
-Rambo preset

to change some, to be better:
-Rocket launcher preset: to add speed upgrade in it and may be buff range on rockets to be able to counter sniper bots
-Anti-naval preset: to add or replace capactor with speed upgrade, so it would be able to compete with naval units

to add cheap combat preset with either left arm gun or with right arm gun(depending of what is more cost efficient), so it would be cheap, quick to get and most used close fight purposes.

to remove:
-presets with RAS (producer and energy rocket launcher), so people wouldn't build those with using the adjacency bonus
-combat presets(combat and fast combat), btw have you ever seen people building combatant presets in main FAF game mode?

Also i don't like the voices for SCUs. If there would be option to disable only these voices, it would be nice.

[pip]

1) RAS: Nomads SCU now don't have RAS anymore, they have a simple resource generator that gives +2 mass/400 energy (Nomads SCU don't give +1 mass/+20 energy anymore which is a basice resource generator). That is similar with Seraphim SCU (+2 mass, + 200 energy, for free), except a bit better because you have to pay for an upgrade and it takes a slot. Seraphim SCU can be built with adjacency. The resource generator for Nomads SCU is as much about speeding up capacitor fill time (20 seconds instead of 50 seconds). It's a multipurpose upgrade, not like RAS.

2) Anti-naval preset: it needs capacitor upgrade to compete against subs because it doubles its rate of fire, meaning it can absorb more torpedoes (otherwise, most of its DPS are countered by units that launch a lot of torpedoes). It doesn't have speed upgrade included because if it has that, it prevents from choosing armor buff or Resource Generator (which is also useful because it boosts capacitor fill rate). Forcing speed upgrade cuts out options. Having 3.3 speed instead of 2.2 speed is interesting underwater, but so is having 4000 HP more and ability to repair faster (or even 28000 hp more).

3) Rocket launcher + resource generator is all about using big AOE rocket more often in capacitor mode, and since you keep your distance, you also benefit from boosted resources if you manage to keep your SCU alive (capacitor also boosts regen rate and survivability). If this preset is not used, it can be replaced with rocket + speed upgrade, or there can be a single rocket launcher preset that includes speed upgrade (though same as for naval preset, this would take out possible interesting options and force higher price). Rockets in capacitor mode kill mobile shields and snipers for breakfast as well as t2 pd rows, that's why it's useful to be able charge it up in 20 seconds. This kind of upgrade is there to be tested and see if it's good for gameplay. You cannot know what it does unless capacitor mode is (ab)used with it.

4) Combat presets are useful. You should fear an Aeon SCU with gun upgrade and its big AOE or a Cybran SCU with EMP. It's not because people don't use them much that they are not useful. As for Nomads, a 800 DPS unit (1300 DPS for 15 seconds in capacitor mode) can be useful (especially if you have one among cheaper SCU and your opponent doesn't realize it). For a reminder, Nomads are a faction that emphasize firepower (DPS) above hp. That's their faction trait. Maybe this preset will not work against Percivals or Experimentals, but I'm sure it is devastating against Aeon and Sera heavy units (it will force them to build snipers).

In next build, there will be 2 cheap presets:
One with just a gun, another with machine gun (with better range than before) + speed upgrade (= new fast combat).

[Apofenas]

Need to take a look on new balance patch.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Pip pls say me what all capacitator do, and what all capacitator upgrade do, and if are my sugestion about capacitator upgrade ok for you.
___________

Imho we dont have problem with number of sacu present, but with chaos of description, imho we dont need desrcipe that unit is upgratable, volatile, transportabe etc.. what is on all sacus, this describe can be only on clasic sacu present. I see better simply say what present had and role for what was desygn. And divide line betwen suport/fight/specialist category help a lot!


___

Small tweek:

- T1 artilery - ROF change to one salve deal 120->140dmg (for kill aurora to one salve, very litle help because so unacurate, but a litle bit)

- T1 tank destroer had similar problem as had obsidian in past, they all focus on first object, then all fire and w8 for reaload time. On Obsidian time this problem was fixed by use some chaneling mechanism, so for now obsidian fire on own object and is not so many owerfiring. When this would be on tank destroer too (what would be good) then get price and time +15%