Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

Post here any idea about current FA Balance.
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Re: Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

Postby noobymcnoobcake » 27 Apr 2012, 17:36

That would be nowhere near enough and you will still always see 1 fac mass assisted. It is still FAR more effective to assist them even with 25% buff. It needs to be buffed far more than that to be competitive ie close to cost of t1 engineers for t2 fac and cheaper than drones for t3 fac. Those buffs are so small they will leave the game unchanged.
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Re: Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

Postby Iszh » 27 Apr 2012, 19:13

it cannot be the target to completely abolish the engis but reduce it. you have to be very careful. what can happen if you change to generous you can see with battlecruiser on seton. the only thing that can stop them is t3 sub of sera.
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Re: Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

Postby noobymcnoobcake » 27 Apr 2012, 21:01

The level of change you say will do NOTHING to stop spam. T2 facs will need 2 less engineers and t3 facs will need 6 less T1 engineers. That change is so little is it not worth doing considering there is often 60 - 200 engineers around most t3 factories. With my changes at least you have the potion with adjacency and there will be the option of t2 fac spamming.
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Re: Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

Postby gluck » 13 May 2012, 02:28

Perhapse is it a bad idea

I think dont change the factori as they are now. Make it possibel to make a assist factoryes (the cost of eng t1 pr build rate fac buildrate 120 but it is opened) can only support adjacency to a another fac .can not build anything by it self .If the factory is assisting a another fac it can build what this fac can build.I hope you can use my ideas?

Yours sincerely gluck

i you like this i have more ideas about how select can be done better and also some thing about economi in the game .I think it can be a bit tricky for newcommers.
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Re: Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

Postby Veta » 13 May 2012, 11:47

I agree with the issues presented by the OP and furthermore I think it's worth reiterating T1 factories are better for T1 spam because GPG balanced it this way on purpose - to cut down on engineer spam at T1. They purposefully increased the time it takes a unit to get off the factory construction pad and as such created a very poor precedent to balance off of. This should not be how factory assist should be balance, factory assist should be balanced by game mechanics (e.g. a 20% nerf on assisting to all nonACU nonSCU engineers on factories and then a relative decrease in cost/hp for T2/T3 engineers - Engie Stations can be addressed later).

Ultimately a 20% nerf on assisting factories would knock T1 engies down from +5 build power to +4, and T2 from +10 to +8, T3 from +15 to +12. The goal here is to make T2/T3 factories the most efficient units to construct units per cost of build power, so if necessary then you would also buff Factory build power at T2/T3 until its in line/superior to engineers for cost. To curb lower tech spam further you could even nerf assisting for buildings/units that an engineer doesn't have tech for (like a T3 PGen being started by a T3 Engie and being finished by tons of T1 engies). Another possible route is only nerfing the assisting on a Tech-Wide level, so T1 would only be nerfed with respect to T2/T3 factories/buildings and T2 would only be nerfed with respect to T3 and above.

Again, GPG made a mistake by balancing the assist spam with slower movement off the factory - it doesn't really address engineer spam on T2/T3 factories or the fundamental issue - which is the cost for additional high tech factories/engies is not justified if you already have that selection available to you - especially when by comparison paying for T1 is paying for cheap build power directly.

Funk raises some notable points but again with the current game mechanics the only way to make multiple tech factories viable is by making them more efficient per cost of build power relative to engineers. Unless you simply disagree whether multiple tech factories or higher tech engineers should be viable then there's not other way to address these mechanics. But I'd like to think that eventually FAF will succeed where GPG failed and make all things viable. Also if Factories are equal to efficiency with regards to engie spam then I think that it wouldn't detract from the currently existing strategies (which call for not that much T3 anyway) but it would also allow players to not be punished for Teching multiple factories either. And if teched factories are equal or greater in build efficient of units as compared to engineers then multiple tech'd factories would also have the small (but silly) advantage GPG created by making units take a slightly longer amount of time on the construction pads.

Yes you can argue all day that the cost of tech Factories are supposed to represent a broader selection, but arguably the cost of T2/T3 engineers and SCUs is supposed to do the same thing and none of those units get anywhere near as much play as their T1 counterparts. The reason is that after you get 1 engineer with higher tech or after you get one factory with higher tech your selections are no longer precluded - as such the 'thing' you're paying for by teching a factory (according to Funk) no longer exists. T1 already has a VARIETY of advantages over T2/T3 aside from just being more efficient (it's spammable, it can cover more ground, it can reclaim more area, it's a harder target, etc). I think making all engineers more or less the same for assisting/build rate purposes (while T1 would still have its intrinsic advantages) would make for a much simpler to understand game (in that it's harder for a noob to make the mistake of not spamming T1 engineers) and allowing multiple high tech factories to be viable would also eliminate another common misconception by new players. It would also make the game more intuitive - which coming from someone who hadn't played SupCom in a while will tell you, you would think is already the case.

TBH Funk it's been a while but I was pretty good with the SC2 editor and I wouldn't mind learning how to draft up a test mod of the many suggestions from this and other balance threads. But specifically relating to the T1 Engineer spam and the viability of multiple factories. Not sure how I'd create the assist nerf - but I feel that more play from efficient high-tech engineers would offset the 'assist' nerf If you'd be interested in testing something like that out or even giving me advice on the numbers let me know

Edit: Also this would address naval engie spam/multiple high tech naval factories being viable. IMO there's too much of 'this is the ONLY way to do this' nonsense in supcom. All things being equal - I think you should have a variety of paths you can take, even when it comes to production capacity. Ya factories might be better for building units than Engineers, but they're also immobile. All aspects of a unit need to be taken into consideration when addressing and identifying quirky mechanics like this. For instance, the cost of additional high tech factories only makes sense when you don't have access to higher tier units/technology.
FA is a game of economic micromanagement (what StarCraft players mistakenly call 'macro') and tactical trumping (e.g. T2 PD countering T1 Spam).
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