Making multiple hitech factories worthwhile

[Jace]

most easiest way would still be to just cut the assistpower for workers on factorys on every faction and give everyone a assist station. would create the least work and balance issues, as the code for the assist stations already exists.

maybe sera and aion stations still get limitet to factory assist, so you have still some faction diversity in that regard.
but would surely create the least problems.

[noobymcnoobcake]

why not cut out the need for so many assist stations in the first place by increasing factory buildpower in the first place? X2 for T2 and X4 for T3 this would cut out the first 36 engineers assisting a T3 fac and every t3 fac has more than 36 t1 engineers assisting it. there would still be a bit of engineer spam and drone use but just not nearly as much.

see article I made on buildpower costs
http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/Build_rate

T2 factories
mass cost from 800 to 1000(1.25x)
energy cost from 7200 to 9000(1.25x)
build power from 40 to 80 (2x)

This would then mean it cost 15.5 mass per build power, only slightly more than a T1 engineer and T2 fac spam would be seen yet so would mass fac assist, so it keeps the old options open. I had to increase the fac costs because otherwise teching up could become too cheap because you dont have the additional cost of the engineers. You could have a pillar every 11 seconds instead of 22.

T3 factories
mass cost from 3150 to 4725 (1.5x)
energy cost from 28530 to 35450(1.25x)
build power from 60 to 240 (4x)

Increase the original factory cost so you are kind of paying for the engineers build power in the factory instead of a percy in 1:20 you are getting one every 20 seconds. MUCH more like it. it is still more economical to spam engineers because it cost 25 mass per build rate.

The T3 factory cost increase is the same as 31.5 T1 engineers yet it provides the same amount of build power as 36 of them. the T2 factory cost an extra 200 mass and has an extra 40 build power. at the price of 2 t1 engineers at 20 build power it gives you 40.

These changes are not meant to stop engineer spam completely but just reduce it by including the cost of the original engineers that are always there in the factory. Spamming T2 factory is now an option and you now can either have engineers that cause path finding issues and can get bombed but are cheaper or more T2 factory that are more expensive (1.5x) yet have high health no path finding issues and take up more space yet the increased cost could be gained back by adjacency bonuses. it would add more options to the game and improve the almost useless adjacency system that is only used for mex. It would increase faction balance for those who don't have engineering stations and it would decrease game lag.

can anyone argue against this?

[Jace]

can anyone argue against this?

if you buff the buildpower of factorys to a level where its on par or even half as bad as spamming engineers mutliple thing will happen:

-engineer stations are then completely useless.

-that will overthrow the fine balance we have now to go up from T1 to T2 and T3, increasing the time we have to spent in each phase.

-like already statet to the sacrificial idea: it will be a huge boost to the adjacency bonuses, creating most likely unforeseen balance issues to most Air units

like i said: the least problems would create buffing assist stations and giving them to aion and sera too. I can't think of any balancing other than changing the assist stations if you do that.

edit: maybe its possible to change the adjacency bonus for all factions not to decrease the mass and energy the factory has to use, but to directly decrease the units cost thats build in that factory? dont know if its possible, but it would boost the adjacency bonus to a level again, where you actually have to use it. and it wouldnt matter if the factory is assistet or has the buildrate itself. so the previous assist station and sacrifice ideas wouldnt create balance problems.
nicely build bases would emerge in gameplay again. its always funnier to destroy something that has a nice look, than something thats messy thrown all over the place
*dream*

[noobymcnoobcake]

I think T2 is underused and often people just skip it completely. Spending longer in T1 could be an issue though and upsetting the delicate balance between t1 and t2 cools be bad.

Engineering stations would not be useless as they would cost around the same as a t3 in build power yet take up less space. And anyway making them less effective is a buff to aeon and seraphim

Yes air balance could be a problem as you could reduce the power cost a lot. Dunno how to fix this but the power cost was already massivley buffed in 3603 and I think t3 air is not very useful on a few maps especially when flack and shields come Out because that kills all non experimental air threats. Still needed to protect some mex and stuff though. With non t3 air an E cost boost may be in order especially for T2 gunships who've I think could do with some rebalancing. With t1 air I don't think e cost reduction will do anything bad.

[AdmiralZeech]

Let's say we want to increase factory buildpower so that they have improved efficiency at building units. (compared to T1 engies.)

But we are afraid of damaging the current balance of the game.

I'd say baby steps is the way to go for this. Buff factory build power by a little bit, see how the game plays. Then in the next version, do it a little more, and maybe nerf engy assist a bit. See how the game plays. Repeat etc.

If gameplay and balance ever become worse, then it's simple to rollback one step and figure out a solution. Or simply stop there.

Of course, experienced players might not be happy having to rethink efficiencies after each update. So maybe not, dunno.

[FunkOff]

Let's say we want to increase factory buildpower so that they have improved efficiency at building units. (compared to T1 engies.)

This is a poor solution. When you upgrade a factory, you are not paying for the build power, you are paying for the better selection of units that you can build. If upgraded factories had similar or better build power/cost ration than lower level factories, t1 would be underpowered.

[FunkOff]

T2 factories
mass cost from 800 to 1000(1.25x)
energy cost from 7200 to 9000(1.25x)
build power from 40 to 80 (2x)

T3 factories
mass cost from 3150 to 4725 (1.5x)
energy cost from 28530 to 35450(1.25x)
build power from 60 to 240 (4x)

You're going about this the wrong way.

Look at your numbers for T2 factories:
You want +200 mass cost and +40 build power. That's 5 mass per build power, so this would be an enormous buff to T2 factories against T1 engineers. (But this is essentially the same plan as adding build power adjacency to massfabs, 2 massfabs would cost 200 mass and gives +40 build power.)

Then look at the numbers for T3 factories: +1475 mass cost for +180 build power. That's 8.2 mass per build power, still a buff for factories vs engineers. (But this is essentially the same plan as adding build power adjacency to massfabs, 15 massfabs would cost 1500 mass and gives +300 build power.)

The big difference between your idea and massfabs, however, is that massfabs incentivizes MULTIPLE factories, whereas your idea still incentivizes only one. Look at your total mass cost/build rate ratio for your adjusted T2 and T3 factories: 15.5 for T2 factories and 24.9 for T3 factories. This means that, at 10.4, T1 engineers still yield more build power per mass, so it makes sense to build more of them RATHER THAN building additional teched factories.

But consider the idea of massfabs, you don't need new massfabs when you tech a new factory, because adjacency allows a line of 4 massfabs to simultaneously buff 2 factories. This means that if you tech a second factory, you get the additional build power without the additional cost your proposed.... so under your idea, 2 T2 factories would cost 2480 mass for 160 build power, or 15.5 mass per build power, whereas under my idea, 2 T2 factories + 4 T2 massfabs would be 2480 mass for 240 build power (40 from each of 2 factories, 20 from each fab for each fac), or 10.3 mass per build power, which is so close to T1 engineer efficiency that the benefits of adjacency actually make it more efficient.

[AdmiralZeech]

Let's say we want to increase factory buildpower so that they have improved efficiency at building units. (compared to T1 engies.)

This is a poor solution. When you upgrade a factory, you are not paying for the build power, you are paying for the better selection of units that you can build. If upgraded factories had similar or better build power/cost ration than lower level factories, t1 would be underpowered.

I was very carefully trying to avoid any connotations at "better". But english can be silly at times.

It's been mentioned time and again that factories in general have poor build power efficiency compared to T1 engies.

So let's improve factory build power efficiency! I don't mean "lets make them better than T1 engies", but "lets make them better than they are at the moment, in baby steps. Possibly combined with an assist nerf to compensate."

So yeah, better factory build power will increase the rate at which units get build and other effects. But it remains to be seen whether these are negative or gamebreaking (unless you guys have been doing secret internal testing?)

So presumably, as you gradually improve factory buildpower & nerf assist, there will be a moment where multiple factories become viable as an alternative to engy assist. And probably also a moment where the game breaks.

Hopefully, the former occurs before the latter, and you can stop buffing factory buildpower there and everyone is happy.

-----------------------

But yeah, your massfab idea sounds good from its multiple-factory-buffing properties. I support it.

Heh, I also support my engy docking idea though. Hah, if a factory has limited engy slots, but docking confers some sort of additional benefit (eg. some protection from damage), then that might be an incentive to build multiple factories too.

[noobymcnoobcake]

The t2 facs could easily repay that added cost with ajacency bonuses. Engineers can't. Also people will be able to use there leftover t1 facs and that reduces cost a bit. You also get added protection and faster factory roll off times due to no engineer collisions. I think it would e quite balanced out and we might see some more t2 used in game. It won't e a nerd to t1 because of the increased cost at the start. Your mass fab idea is nice but too volatile. If a single t2 mass fan is killed then that's it. All your build power is gone as us the mass you invested into it. The game will become a who can snipe that mass fab first and be even more shield dependant. You won't be able to rebuild those mass fans fast and all it takes is 1 lucky bomb so that lucky snipe could be game winning. While I like the risk/reward feature this has taken it a little too high.

[Iszh]

hey i made the same suggestion to improve built power in the t1 engi thread just some minutes ago i am new in this forum i like this idea because it automatically increases the adjacency as well. just a bit is enough to have a better balance of it. 25% more for t2 factories and 50% more for t3 factories would not make them imba but add enough to make them much more useful. i explaine in the other thread