Build times for mobile units

[FunkOff]

Way back before FA was released, the developers at GPG decided that there was too much engineer assisting of factories going on. Way back then, the build rate for a basic tech 1 factory was 10 (compared to a tech 1 engineer, which was/is 5). Tech 2 factories were 20 and tech 3 factories were 30. At these old rates, engineer assisting was greatly more effective than unassisted factories at every tech level by a wide margin.

The developers heard complaints about this from the community and decided to change it by doubling every factory's build rate and the build time of every single mobile unit in the game (except experimentals because they were/are not built by factories).

However, as we see in the current build, engineer assisting is still extremely prominent. In fact, this change by the developers in an attempt to reduce engineer spam has actually made it more prevalent because now it takes twice as many engineers to achieve the same increase in production speed and, aside from tech 1 air factories, factories are still *FAR* less efficient at building units than tech 1 engineers.

Further, this change has caused build times to be flatly ridiculous: The build time of a destroyer is 10,000 but the build time of the Tempest, a unit that costs OVER ten times as much, is nearly the same at only 12,000. Battleships, which are only tech 3 units, used to have build times of 45,000 in 3599 and, despite having been greatly reduced, have build times of 18,000 now, still 50% more than a Tempest.

For land units, consider the brick has a build time of 4800 and the monkeylord has a build time of 15750, barely 3x as much despite costing more than 15x as much.

To put this into a better perspective, consider this hypothetical example: You are trying to put together a T3 land army to fight your enemy who is building T4s. You are spamming engineers, but due to being frequently raided/bombed/harassed, each engineer is only lasting an average of 4 minutes before it dies. Assuming all of that time is spent building, you are paying an equivalent of 52 mass for every 1200 build time. If you want to spend 21000 mass on T3 bricks while your opponent spends 21000 mass on a T4 unit, you are paying an additional 2730 mass in build power (about 15% more) just to build your lower tech units.... and that's not even counting the build power you needed to build that build power (because factories to spam engineers with are not themselves free).

My proposal is very simple: We revert the global change in build times/factory build rates. That way, engineer assisting will be both simultaneously buffed and nerfed, and the game will be more similar to the way it was originally designed.

My proposal, therefore, is to entirely

My proposal is very simple:

[pip]

I don't agree. I think build rates with engies / factories is slightly better now, since higher tier factories are way more efficient, it lessens the need for more engineers. It makes sense.
Besides, killing the engies is a part of the game, to slow down your opponent. But if they die, your T3 fac can still produce at a good speed.

It's more interesting in my opinion to adjust some buildtimes that are excessive in either directions. In 3603, GPG reduced buildtimes of T3 navy so that it can be built in a decent amount of time. It worked. But :
1) they were a bit too extreme, reducing buildtime by half instead of a third (as in the CBP)
2) They didn't adjust the t2 navy builtimes accordingly.

They should have found a balance between these two tiers, and not just adjust one, to avoid such discrepancy. T2 navy buildtimes should be reduced by 25%. A Destroyer buildtime should be around 7500 compared to a battleship 18000 (which could be upped a bit to 20000).

As for the buildtime of Experimentals, they can be adjusted too. Their buildtime should be short for sure, but not too short, and certainly not less than a t3 unit. The Tempest, if it is turned into a worthy unit, should have a buildtime of at least 20000.
If you think it's too fast to build a Monkeylord compared to Brick, just up a bit the buildtime of the Monkeylord, but that's specifically one of its strengh (fastest buildable land Exp). There is no problem with GC or Chicken Bot.

So I'd say: adjust buildtimes rationnally accross the board instead of promoting engy spam as it was before.

[FunkOff]

I don't agree. I think build rates with engies / factories is slightly better now, since higher tier factories are way more efficient, it lessens the need for more engineers. It makes sense.

This shows me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how everything works and what was changed. Before the change I mentioned, as opposed to now, default build times for ALL UNITS from unassisted factories were *IDENTICAL* to what they are now. Factories are neither more efficient nor better at building units now than they were before. The only thing that changed is engineers are WORSE at building units, but because they are STILL better at it than factories, the only effective change is that you need TWICE AS MANY engineers are before to build the same amount of units. It did not "lessens the need for more engineers", but does the complete opposite and doubles the need for more engineers.

As for the buildtime of Experimentals, they can be adjusted too. Their buildtime should be short for sure, but not too short, and certainly not less than a t3 unit. The Tempest, if it is turned into a worthy unit, should have a buildtime of at least 20000.
If you think it's too fast to build a Monkeylord compared to Brick, just up a bit the buildtime of the Monkeylord, but that's specifically one of its strengh (fastest buildable land Exp). There is no problem with GC or Chicken Bot.

This, again, show me you don't understand the current game situation and that you made no effort to do so: This is a problem universal to all units across all factions: Just look at these numbers.

mass time mass/time
35 140 0.25 *Mech Marine
200 1000 0.25 *Mongoose
480 2400 0.2 *Titan
28000 21000 1.33 *Fatboy

Fatboy builds, per mass, 5.32 times faster than a mech marine


mass time mass/time
290 1450 0.2 *Aeon Frigate
2250 10000 0.225 *Aeon Destroyer
9000 18000 0.5 *Aeon Battleship
28000 12000 2.3 *Tempest

Tempest builds, per mass, 11.67 times faster than the Aeon frigate

mass time mass/time
54 270 0.2 *Thaam
360 1600 0.225 *Ilshovah
840 9600 0.233 *Othuum
25000 18750 1.33 *Ythotha

Ythotha builds 6.67 tiems faster than a Thaam

[pip]

I think I don't understand indeed. In my simple mind, a t3 factory with 60 buildpower can build the same unit faster than a t3 factory with 30 buildpower.
In my simple mind, before, you needed t3 fac (30 buildpower) + 6 t1 engies to get the same buildpower as a "naked" t3 fac now.
So I don't see how you need more engies to build at the same speed, you need less engies, and if you have more, you build even faster.

So, in order to enlighten me on how it really works, because your explanation didn't make it clear enough. Take an example of what was the required time to build a Brick for instance, unassisted, and assisted. Then maybe i'll understand. For now, it's not clear for me.

EDIT: Experimentals are meant to be built much faster. It is intended (yet i think some adjustments should be made considering the stage of the game they are supposed to appear = t4 and not t3). You cannot compare them to other units. Otherwise, they would appear much later in games or would require precisely an army of engineers.

[Kryo]

hmm this would be a heavy change to the game, but in the end, you would need less factories and most important less engineers to have the same mass usage than before.

Could work, b ut could also change a lot... needs to be tested.

[FunkOff]

So, in order to enlighten me on how it really works, because your explanation didn't make it clear enough. Take an example of what was the required time to build a Brick for instance, unassisted, and assisted. Then maybe i'll understand. For now, it's not clear for me.

Alrighty then. Here's a side-by-side comparison of old-versus-current build times:
Old: Current: If reverted back to old:
Factory build rate: 30 build rate 60 build rate -50% build rate
Brick: 2400 build time 4800 build time -50% build time
Unassisted production 1 Brick every 80 seconds 1 Brick every 80 seconds No change
Assisted by 10 engies 1 Brick every 30 seconds 1 Brick every 44 seconds -32% production time
Assisted by 50 engies 1 Brick every 8.6 seconds 1 Brick every 15.5 seconds -45% production time
Total bricks in 400 seconds of production:
Unassisted: 5 Bricks 5 Bricks No change
Assisted by 10 engies 13.3 Bricks 9.1 Bricks +46% more bricks
Assisted by 50 engies 46.5 Bricks 25.8 Bricks +80% more bricks
Assisted by infinite infinite bricks 1/2 infinite bricks +100% more bricks
T1 Engineers needed to produce 1 Brick every 5 seconds:
90 engineers (4680 mass) 180 engineers (9360 mass) -90 engineers (-4680 mass)
Engineers needed to build 21000 mass in monkeylords in 500 seconds:
6.3 6.3 No change
Engineers needed to build 21000 mass in bricks in 500 seconds:
15.75 31.5 -50% required number of engineers

Is that more clear?

[FunkOff]

hmm this would be a heavy change to the game, but in the end, you would need less factories and most important less engineers to have the same mass usage than before.

Actually, you would need fewer factories and the same number of engineers or the same number of factories and fewer engineers to produce the same number of units. So, this is essentially a nerf to engineer spam... you will need fewer engineers to perform the same tasks of building various unit types. It will buff T1, T2 and T3 about equally because it will be easier to build all of those unit types. It will buff T1 because, even though T1 factories are not engineer assisted now, the change will make it so it becomes beneficial to assist T1 factories because it will only take 2 engineers (104 mass) to double the production speed of a 240 T1 land factory.

This will buff T1 land pushes because it will require a lower expenditure of mass in constructing build power because your total build power needed to put together a mob of 50 tech1 units will be cut in half. However, it will also buff t2 and t3 for the very same reasons: It will be faster/require less build power to upgrade your factories and build higher tech units.

Further, and I think this is most critical, getting your engineers sniped/bombed/TMLed/etc as they are assisting a teched factory won't be a damning anymore because you can more quickly produce replacement engineers (engineers can assist building engineers at double the current production benefit) and you only need half as many engineers to produce tech units at the same rate.

It's really a quite elegant solution.

[pip]

Ok, I got it now. You are refering to the values during closed beta. I had forgotten this change occured indeed and that a Brick 's buildtime was 2400 at that time instead of the current 4800.
But in Supcom 1, engies spam was there too. So maybe it's better to find another solution than reverting to one that was discarded.

I don't know if it would be better to change all buildtimes like this or instead tweak the areas where buildtimes need adjustment one by one.
Another solution is to increase factory buildtimes even more. This can make engies much less needed because when you consume all your resources on building something, additional engies don't help much, and then what bothers you most, losing your buildpower because of the death of engies, would also be less of a problem. After all, a t2 factory costs 3.5 times more than a t1 fac and yet it builds only twice faster. And a t3 fac costs 13.5 times a t1 fac and yet builds only 3 times faster. T2 facs building with 60 buildpower and T3 ones with 120 would be quite efficient by themselves.

What I mean is, instead of changing each and every unit, maybe it's possible to achieve what you intend to with other kinds of tweaks. I don't know what solution would limit the most engies spamming, it would need a lot of testing.

[FunkOff]

Ok, I got it now. You are refering to the values during closed beta.

Well, no. I was never in the supreme commander closed beta... and this change was made before FA was released.

But in Supcom 1, engies spam was there too. So maybe it's better to find another solution than reverting to one that was discarded.

Yeah, but this change was in supcom 1 as well... there would be less engie spam if we were to revert it.

I don't know if it would be better to change all buildtimes like this or instead tweak the areas where buildtimes need adjustment one by one.

"one-by-one" would be pointless because, aside from tech 3 ships which were changed in 3603, all units built by factories have a masscost-to-buildtime ratio of between 0.2 and 0.3, which is far below that of experimentals (which are usually between 5-10) and even below that of structures, which is usually around 0.8. This is a systemic issueand not an acute problem.

Another solution is to increase factory buildtimes even more.

I assume you mean factory "build rates". And yes, this was my first proposed solution and it was the one that I put into my faction diversity mod. This is the purest solution in that it effectively solved the underlying problem: Engineers have higher build power per masscost than factories. However, a T2 or T3 factory that has as much build power as equal mass in engineers would produces units so quickly that the economy required to support it is usually well-below what players usually have when they reach that tech level. As such, players cannot realistically keep all their factories running on an infinite build que and players don't like this because they consider the "many always-running factories" to be a signature gameplay element of Supreme Commander/FA. Also, it complexes balance because the mass spent upgrading factories then becomes overpowered: That is, you pay 630 in mass, but you receive the equivalent value in build power AND the equivalent value in tech advancement. The only way to really solve this would be if you could upgrade factories both up (to access higher techs) and laterally (to achieve higher build power)... sort of like starcraft's Terran barracks/war factory, but with multiple levels and both at the same time.

What I mean is, instead of changing each and every unit, maybe it's possible to achieve what you intend to with other kinds of tweaks.

Other than this idea in the OP and the idea above, my other idea was to improve the efficiency of higher tech engineers, that is, T2 and T3 engineers. As it stands, they are abysmal at producing things as compared to tech 1 engineers so making them about as effective would help curb T1 engie spam... or at least replace it with a modest number of T2 and T3 engineers... with my proposed changes, 1 T2 engie would replace 3 T1 engies and a 1 T3 engies would replace 9 T1 engies.

[pip]

Ok, I understand all the aspects of the issue now.

Maybe improving slightly higher tiers factories and engies buildpower can be a satisfying solution. Like 50 buildpower for t2 and 70 for t3 facs and t2 engies with 15 and t3 ones 20 buildpower (and 25 for Seraphim and Aeon).

But I understand your OP idea better now. Thanks for taking the time to explain. It's a good idea, but I feel that it would need a lot of work to adjust, because it would change unexpected things (I suppose) and the resulting game would probably be quite different overall.