Lategame balance

[Pavese]

While th early and mid game balancing is rather good, the lategame is just a piece of sorry trash. So many units that are intended for lategame do a terrible job at it. Experimentals that are useless, Air that dominates everything and relicts from supcom that should have been canceled or adjustet but not left in this state of uselessness(talking about t3 arty)

this time: Experimentals

Experimentals play a big part in Supreme commander, yet only a few are worthwhile building while others are not and the next one is only build to harakiri your opponents energy line. WTF? Why isnt this a topic yet?

Experimentals need an overhaul., No i dont want to touch Monkey/GC/ythota. I think they are the most balanced ones. I want to talk about the other ones that are just rubbish and the ones that need just abit love (Fatboy) or could be tweaked (Mega).

Naval exp. need balancing love. Adjusting them into an supportive role that contributes to your T3 naval forces would be just fine. Giving that they are all submissive they should be good with and against Torpedoes.


Tempest: more anti-sub and a more battleship-sieging-support role would make this exp great (atm way to expensive, way to easy to kill, way to weak for its price ).

Atlantis: needs more anti-sub and needs more anti-air to make it a worthwhile support for navy fleeets. Buff it and make it more expensive, bring it in line with the rest of the navy exp.( atm cheap ass exp that is not realy usefull.)

Mega: could be more naval focused and trade some of that landbased firepower for more naval based firepower. (giving him both would just make him stupid yet i think it would be cool to make Mega more versatil. Cybran fanboys gonna hate me for this.)

Seraphim has no navy capable exp. But seraphim is broken beyond repair in many ways,


Air Experimentals need balancing love. ATM they are fodder to the stupid amounts of ASF in the sky (thanks to no real way to deal with them other to build more of your own). While land exp can move and search for good engagements, Air exp are usually slow and can be picked up with ease. The only Air exp you will see rather often is the czar, but only because it's used as a giant mercy.


CZAR: the "flying fortress" should be made into one. Reduce its death crash damage so its not just a stupid suicide unit. Whats wrong with a slow moving, high HP saucer with good AA capabilites giving the Aeon an edge in ASF fights when engaging correctly.

Soulripper: have not seen him in ages. Not sure how to fix him.

Ahwassa: the seraphim trade mark aka pay 48k Mass to get an "maybe" 11k damage dealing giant "KILL ME" Dot on the map aka why seraphim is broken in general. (Pay 10 k Mass to get 5x 3k damage dealing bombers that are much more reliable when it comes to dropping the bomb and can be used to much greater effectivness)


Air exp. suffer greatly from the monotone T3 sky battles thanks to their low speed and high cost. So the probleme ist mostly not their uselessness, its T3 ASF that shut down Air play in lategame completly. Want to drop? Want to build Air-Exp? NOPE!,ASF BOWCHACKAWOWOW kills everything! I think a serious T3Air speed nerf would greatly benefit lategame air play in general......


This leaves the sad rest which is:


Fatboy: just give him more shield HP so he has a bit more survivability. He dies way to easy to everything. Other then that, hes fine.

Novax: would need a complete role change away from a 37k mass costing 150 DPS lol tickle canon. Even a Titans has more DPS. Maybe change it to a flying shield disruptor like the Aeon absolver with good vision to scout for just half that price?

and of course

Game-enders of all kind: we probably shouldnt touch them and just leave them be for the lulz.




So theres a wall of text only about how broken experimentals are. If were every going to relase a balance update, F bomber, Mercys and gunships. Useless experimentals is a way way bigger problem.

[uberge3k]

Actually, I think lategame balance is quite solid, and aside from a few underused units it's fine as is.

Atlantis: needs more anti-sub and needs more anti-air to make it a worthwhile support for navy fleeets. Buff it and make it more expensive, bring it in line with the rest of the navy exp.( atm cheap ass exp that is not realy usefull.)

Atlantises are a great lategame augment to a UEF navy - they're typically used as "tanks", as it has an incredibly massive amount of HP and great torpedo capabilities. I think buffing it any more would make it a bit too strong.

Mega: could be more naval focused and trade some of that landbased firepower for more naval based firepower. (giving him both would just make him stupid yet i think it would be cool to make Mega more versatil. Cybran fanboys gonna hate me for this.)

Megaliths are AWESOME in naval maps. They have such powerful torp defenses that swarms of T2/T3 subs can't even dent them. If they had more naval firepower I think they'd be way too strong.

CZAR: the "flying fortress" should be made into one. Reduce its death crash damage so its not just a stupid suicide unit. Whats wrong with a slow moving, high HP saucer with good AA capabilites giving the Aeon an edge in ASF fights when engaging correctly.

Its AA is already decent, but it does die quickly to ASF. Keep in mind that it's a factory as well, and can quickly build ASF of its own if you have the resources for it.

It's mostly a matter of preference, but I've never liked it being able to go crash through shields either...

Soulripper: have not seen him in ages. Not sure how to fix him.

This is the unit that needs the most balancing IMO. Perhaps simply cutting its cost by ~30% would be enough?

Ahwassa: the seraphim trade mark aka pay 48k Mass to get an "maybe" 11k damage dealing giant "KILL ME" Dot on the map aka why seraphim is broken in general. (Pay 10 k Mass to get 5x 3k damage dealing bombers that are much more reliable when it comes to dropping the bomb and can be used to much greater effectivness)

This is the BEST air experimental by a huge margin. It's fast enough to ignore flak and has enough AA to kill small groups of ASF on its own. Unless you have dozens and dozens of SAMs or total air superiority, it will level bases in just a few passes. Not to mention the insane veterancy it gets when it kills 200 t1 engies with one bomb!

Fatboy: just give him more shield HP so he has a bit more survivability. He dies way to easy to everything. Other then that, hes fine.

The Fatboy is actually my favorite land experimental, as it can outrange everything. If other exps get in too close, a strong T3 force of percies + shields complements it extremely well. Its only real weakness is bombers, which is good - UEF are already the best turtle-y faction, so their units need some weaknesses.


I agree that the Tempest and other game enders could use some tweaking to be brought back into usefulness. I think simply cutting their costs might be enough. Salvation / para / yolona are all fine, however.

[monty]

reduce the cost of paragon. it should NOT be a near infinite resource maker anymore. it should not be on par with other game ending devices. you see, why should aeon have 2 game ending devices, the salvation and paragon, while all other factions have one? (UEF-Mavor, Cybran-Scathis, Seraphim-Yolona Oss) thats not fair. also, all game ending experimentals except paragon guarantees an instant win once built, but in order to end game with the paragon, you must have the build power to make lots of unit. why build a paragon if salvations already ensures a victory. makes you wonder if paragon is actually useless

[Pavese]

Atlantises are a great lategame augment to a UEF navy - they're typically used as "tanks", as it has an incredibly massive amount of HP and great torpedo capabilities. I think buffing it any more would make it a bit too strong.

TBH a summit has more HP, is cheaper, does more Damage and a single cruiser has more AA DPS then the atlantis, according to databse. Of course it ouplays the Tempest in many way. but bringing them cost wise in line and even doubling their torpedo based DPS wouldn't make them imba in Navy combat. It should be a huge investement to build an exp, like it is with Ground based exp.

Megaliths are AWESOME in naval maps. They have such powerful torp defenses that swarms of T2/T3 subs can't even dent them. If they had more naval firepower I think they'd be way too strong.

Well i have to see them in real navy combat tbh. I was looking at the stats and was not realy impressed for an exp of that cost and based on the many games i played, i never saw a Mega actually utilizing its Navy-potential.

This is the BEST air experimental by a huge margin. It's fast enough to ignore flak and has enough AA to kill small groups of ASF on its own. Unless you have dozens and dozens of SAMs or total air superiority, it will level bases in just a few passes. Not to mention the insane veterancy it gets when it kills 200 t1 engies with one bomb!

If the best Air. exp by a huge margin costs more then 100 ASF, dies to them in 2 shots and is hard countered by any form of terrain that prevents it from dropping its bomb, i dunno why you think its not completly broken as it is.

Fatboy

i killed so manny fatboys with TMLs and T2 Arty, its not even funny. Do realise that his DPS mostly hits ground, he has the lowest HP of all land exp and his shields catches everything fired in his general direction. Not saying he needs this buff otherwise he is rubbish, just saying he needs some love to compensate for his price and weaknesses.

Also dont talk about game enders. They are a story of their own and beyond repair. Also how many games do realy end with a game ender? Focus on the rest pls.

[noobymcnoobcake]

Air experimentals are not used until people got air superiority and on large maps with air superiority its GG. When there is hundreds of ASF around experimental die in SECONDS. even when there is not sams and shields counter them quite well. Buff all AA on all air experimental by 2x and decrease cost for them, some more than others. if people can get them out before the 200 strong ASF swarms they might see some more use.

The percy is the UEFs monkeylord/GC. The fatboy is far better than T3 arty. Prehaps making its shield bubble slightly smaller would do something for it along with removing its AA and instead replace it with naval TMD. There is a mod on the gpgnet vault, somewhere, that does this. It gets two buzzkills.

Tempest is broken but there is another thread for that.

Atlantis is fine.

Mega is not used much but yes is very good on naval maps. It can fire from the beach and cant be hit by surface weapons when it is half submerged. It wins 1v1 against ANY other land/naval unit in the game.

Novax. yes this 42k mass synch that will do nothing but lose you the game. what d do with him....
idea 1) flying shield disruptor like the Aeon absolver with good vision to scout for just half that price?. I like that one

idea 2) Intel sat like eye of rihanne. perhaps give it omni as well as large vision radius? also make it far cheaper.

idea 3) Mobile anti nuke that don't cost mass to shoot down nukes but has to wait 3 mins between shots and cost lots of E

idea 4) Make its laser quite a bit more deadly but make it counter able by anti nukes. Also make sat cost 7k mass or something (you get it free first time novax built) and take 5 mins to build. could be used to kill any arty attempting to siege anything or weaken experimental

idea 5) Anything else you an think of?

[Antoninus]

idea 5) Anything else you an think of?

I always imagined the Novax being an anti-eco experimental, in that it would go around and destroy all the mexs/unshielded power generators on the other team. I think that's a really good idea and gives the UEF an experimental unit with a genuinely unique utility. Unfortunately, this idea is better in theory than actuality, in that most players playing small to medium maps concentrate their mass production to the mexs around their initial spawn, where shields render the Novax useless; only on large maps like Setons or Shards do I see a real (theoretical) use for it. But because of its massive cost and its terrible laser, it is still never used. At 150DPS its laser pointer of a laser beam would take an entire minute to destroy a t3 mex. That's too long. If I am investing 42,000 Mass into an eco killing unit I want it to pay dividends in terms of destroying my opponent's eco.

For this reason, I think the cost should either be halved, or the DPS should be doubled. If you're really feeling crazy, add a little splash damage so that it will kill the mass storage and/or affect double shields as well.

Not every experimental has to be considered useful on every map, but if one of these changes were made to the Novax I could see it becoming a real asset to UEF on large, decentralized maps.

Last thought: If all the sudden my eco was being destroyed by an invisible force from above, I would be more inclined to go attack the base-station. In this way it may encourage games to be more dynamic and offensive, rather than a race to 25 nukes.

EDIT: Or we could just bring back the 10,000k Control-K satellite crash that ignores shields

[noobymcnoobcake]

It don't even cost 42k mass to cover every single one of your mex in a T2 shield and a mobile shield... it might only work like that on maps like betrayal and then there so many mex to kill it take so long. Yes good idea in theory but its expensive, inefficient and not that hard to counter. more of an annoyance than a threat

[FunkOff]

this time: Experimentals

Wow, you have a lot of strong opinions. Allow me to address them.

The Soul ripper, Ahwassa and CZAR are all fundamentally similar: They are the counter to everything but SAMS and ASFs. Their strength lies in the fact that, unlike land/naval XPs which can be beaten through a variety of tactics (mass shields + PD, Overcharge, Percival spam, other land/naval XPs) the air XPs are practically invulnerable to Non-SAM and Non-ASF units. Even other air XPs are largely helpless to stop air XPs. Air XPs used to be cheap... the Soul ripper was 20,000 in the original supcom, and this was ridiculously overpowered because, as you'll recall, land XPs were all 50,000+ mass and a single Soul Ripper would annhilate them, making all land XPs redundant. The 40,000 price point for the SR is perfect because it is a grade above land XPs and is, for all intents and purposes, an XP that can beat other XPs, which is not a negligible skill.

The SR is fine, the Ahwassa is fine, the CZAR is a glorified mercy due to it's short range but is essentially fine... although in my faction diversity mod I greatly nerfed it's beam weapon and gave it ungodly AA range and power so it was more like an experimental fighter than anything else... but I don't think other people want me changing the roles of units so a small AA buff would probably be all the CZAR needs.

The Megalith is astonishingly good. It's so good that with the Monkeylord nerf (to 21,000 mass) it almost makes the monkeylord completely useless. In fact, a single Megalith defeated one of my opponents in a 6 way FFA on Roanoake's abyss last night because it's so strong it can kill navy and bases with relative easy... and with 110,000 hp it's just so difficult to kill. The Megalith is bad-ass.

The Atlantis is also very good. It's used as a sort of tech 4 sub (rather than an a tech 4 carrier) but, if I get my way on the naval changes I want (SMS and Carriers) I'll be buffing that so that is can make better use of its carrier-ness.

The Tempest... yes, see the other topic.

The game enders are really expensive and only really used on large land maps. Unlike T3 naval, T3/T4 land doesn't really have a lot of viable siege options, so if a base is sufficiently fortified with shields + SAMs + SMD + PDs, a game ender is really the only way to win. The said, I wouldn't mind buffing them, either through a direct cost reduction or a DPS increase.

The last XP is the Novax. I'll give you that one, more than any other XP this one is certifiably useless. I think a good way to make it useful is to give it better vision and more damage so that it can see exposed enemy units/structures and target them. Right now it's got so little vision it's practically blind and difficult to find things you can shoot with it. However, with a damage increase to make the Noax useful I'd have to insist that it be vulnerable to SMD so that defending players have *some* option for destroying it.

[pip]

I agree with Funkoff. All Experimentals are good or in need of few adjustments (Fatboy, Czar for instance) except the Tempest and the Novax which need big changes.
SCU need more love than Experimentals.

[AwarE]

I would like to see all Experimentals given an anti-nuke silo containing 3 weapons that is full when the unit is built. No need for regeneration of the anti-nuke weapons…just build another Experimental if more anti-nuke cover is needed remote from your main base, particularly on the water. The dual role will make building Experimentals more popular.

Only other concern for me is that the Czar death crash should deal less damage to your ACU. Amount of damage delivered to buildings and other units is ok.

roj