Cybran's lack of hover weakness

[FunkOff]

I was just observing a zock vs isen, Aeon vs Cybran on Paradise, and I noticed something substantial. Basically, the lack of any hover unit whatsoever puts Cybran at a huge disadvantage, particularly in naval games because they have to unit which is simultaneously useful against both land and sea.

Just looking at the stats, the Wagner has 3 torpedo DPS, 1450 health and costs 297 mass. The Sliver has 37.5 torpedo DPS, 525 health and costs 360 mass. Therefore, the anti-sea efficiency of the wagner, based on these values alone, is about 14.6. The sliver's anti-sea efficiency, based on the same, is about 54.7. Now, it's important that subs remain better at killing sea units than T2 amphibious tanks. This is unquestioned based upon the lessons learned in the original Supcom beta, where wagners were wildly more efficient than subs to the point where building subs was considered useless.

However, looking at the numbers, 14.6 vs 54.7, we have a lot of room. It is my opinion, therefore, that we ought to triple the torpedo DPS of the wagner, from 3 to 9, changing it's anti-sea efficiency from 14.6 to 43.8, still less than that of the T1 sub, but enough that wagners may, en masse, be able to defeat ships in the way that Riptides, Auroras and Blaze tanks do.

tl:dr: Change Wagner torp DPS from 3 to 9.

Edit: I'm using a revised algorithm now, wagner efficiency is 49, sliver is 152. My recommendation for the wagner remains the same.

Brick raw efficiency is 55, so the torpedo DPS could be doubled and it would be fine.
Seraphim T3 tank is 47, so it's about the same and DPS could be doubled in the same fashion.
The Monkeylord is only 5, so it could be given considerably better torpedoes without too much risk of imbaness.
The megalith is 24, so it's torp dps could also be doubled without too much worry.

[ToejamS]

Yep, sounds good. Wagners cant even knock the rust off boats atm where riptides and blaze/shield are viable naval counters.

[Raging_Squirrel]

he Wagner has 3 torpedo DPS

I was always wondering WHY????
same goes for bricks and ML

[Isen]

yes same with sera t3 tanks. killing something with torps of those units is like killing an acu with t1 scouts.

[FunkOff]

yes same with sera t3 tanks. killing something with torps of those units is like killing an acu with t1 scouts.

Let's see here... brick has 10 torp DPS and 9000 health for 1280 mass... that gives it an efficiency of 70.31... so it's a better sub that T1 subs are by a significant amount. Of course, the brick also has an anti-torpedo as well, making it even better.

The seraphim T3 tank has a raw efficiency of about 39.9 (5 dps, 6700 health and 840 mass cost), so it's only half as good of a sub killer as the brick... and almost, but not quite as good as the T1 sub and only half as good as the brick.

The monkeylord has 50 torp DPS, 45000 hp and costs 21000 mass, so it's raw efficiency is 107.1, making it almost twice as efficient.

[ToejamS]

I think you should work out a cost/mass/something ratio of how many riptides/blazes/sera floating thingy it takes to kill a destroyer or some naval unit then base the torp damage on that. As you stated, cybran has no hover units to counter naval, perhaps they could counter naval from sub-marine. I know it was done like that at some stage in the beta, where cybran just pwned the world with wagners but at the moment, cybran suck, they suck hard. They suck so hard Rock doesnt even play cybran. Rather than a little gentle buff, they should be able to mass effectively counter navy similar to the other races.

[FunkOff]

I think you should work out a cost/mass/something ratio of how many riptides/blazes/sera floating thingy it takes to kill a destroyer or some naval unit then base the torp damage on that.

This wouldn't work out very well. For one, cruisers/destroyer can kite T2 hover tanks, so it's not like you can put a finite number on exactly how many of one it takes to beat of the other or visa versa.

Also, the advantages of having submerged tank versus a hover one shouldn't be underestimated. Underwater units can only he hit by torps and can only be detected by sonar and ships' water vis.

Further, buffing torps for amphib units beyond the efficiency of subs is a no-no because it makes subs useless. (As you'll note, in another topic I was lobbying for a 30% buff to submarine torpedo damage, which would raise the ceiling on the max DPS that the amphib tanks can do without being imba...)

So yes, the wagner needs more torp DPS than it has right now, but it can't be more efficienct at torp dps than subs.

[TAG_ROCK]

I agree on these changes too.

[Kryo]

me too! torpedo damage of Wagner/brick/monkey/Megalith/t3 sera tank is too low right now

[Karottenrambo]

/me imagines that his sera destroyer will cost-effectivly be beaten by wagners too in the future...