"Mercies" are too good!

[lebensnebel]

I support a range nerv.
An ACU having a several AA units with him should be save. When pushing with the ACU, you can't be expected to have "a big semi circle" of AA infront of him (cause they will be killed, obviously).
Furthermore the mercy is clearly very annoying and frustrating for many players in team games, more than comparable t2gunship or FB snipes, because they feel that they got sniped inspite of having seemingly adequate protecting (like a t2 stationary shield and 2 stat. t1 AA). Fun gameplay through transparent mechanics has a high priority for me and probably most people.

I also would like the mercy to be useful on other targets. When it was first introduced (and was ridiculously OP) it was very viable to snipe the first t2 pgen with a single mercy.
Maybe we could make mercys completly ignore shield? Hopefully together with a range nerv, that wouldn't make them op but useful to kill shielded stuff.
Any other suggestions?
Damage buff?
HP buff, speed decrease?
Range nerv, speed increase?

ps: I consider calling certain players playstyles "lazy" and thus categorizing them/their style as inferior very ill-mannered.

[uberge3k]

Watch mercy test replay, map is not revealed like on your replays, instead enemy has radars. I'm leading mercies right over flaks, too bad I forgot to add interceptors next to his ACU, but I can do another test if you want. I could move flaks even a little further, but I think this proves my point (I tested it twice, after first explosion continue watching). Threat levels work fine, but only if unit is already scouted - that means "dots" on radars (mercies) will not get targeted if AA is already shooting at interceptors that are distracting them.

And can I please not respond to "but I will have his mercies scouted"? The guy using mercies in not a complete retard.

If you're going to try to make a test, please use an official map. As it stands, I don't have the map you used, and thus can't see your "proof".

But, if I may condense your post (since we don't like being wordy): you don't think you should have to scout, and that < 10% mass should counter a tactic?

And you claim that *I'm* not realistic?

What?... *Sigh*... I'm asking again - can we please be more realistic? In the actual game, are you going to counter mercies while building not more than 1 interceptor or 1 flak in entire match? Show me replays where you do that, and not just 1-2, because i'll just say "1) he did this wrong 2) that wrong 3) this wrong"

Again with the straw man arguments. I'll ignore this, because if you seriously believe that it's acceptable for a unit to counter 36x its mass value, we can safely end this discussion without wasting any more time.

If enemy has MonkeyLord and the other guy had, at minimum, less than half of its mass cost to counter him, then he deserves to lose. Why are you comparing only mass costs to counter ML and mercies? Even if you dont scout ML, at that stage of the game you'll have something to counter it.

I'm struggling to understand your logic.

With an ML, it's reasonable to expect an enemy to be able to counter it. Okay. You even cited "half the mass cost" as an acceptable level for a counter. Sounds good.

So... why are mercies any different?

Put 900 mass into a variety of counters for mercies, and I can 100% guarantee you they won't get through. Especially if they're shields, as it is simply not possible to mass-effectively counter shields with mercies.

Can someone *PLEASE* tell me why mercies are so different that they bend the laws of mass-effectiveness into some bizarre space-time loop where the normal game rules don't apply?

If anything, the more I'm comparing the numbers, the more it's looking like mercies are actually UP.

1 interceptor can counter mercies, in theory, just like 1 gunship can counter ML

1 gunship will be shot down by the ML's AA weapon. I can only assume that the rest of your post will be thought out equally as well...

[uberge3k]

An ACU having a several AA units with him should be save. When pushing with the ACU, you can't be expected to have "a big semi circle" of AA infront of him (cause they will be killed, obviously).

Because... and I'll say this again, very, very slowly, using small words so that people might read it...

Ints... And... Scouting... Counter... Mercies...

If you're pushing, you had better make sure your ACU is going to be protected. Otherwise, you shouldn't be pushing. It's as simple as that. AA is a great secondary defense against mercies, and is very, very easy to rush if you think you're in imminent danger of a mercy snipe.

Mercies aren't free. They cost mass. Mass that is spent on mercies is mass that you can spend on cool things that aren't affected by mercies or that will help you survive against mercies and gain the upper hand.

Furthermore the mercy is clearly very annoying and frustrating for many players in team games, more than comparable t2gunship or FB snipes, because they feel that they got sniped inspite of having seemingly adequate protecting (like a t2 stationary shield and 2 stat. t1 AA). Fun gameplay through transparent mechanics has a high priority for me and probably most people.

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... bp=UEB4202

You need 3 mercies to get through a shield. A shield costs the same as 2 mercies. Therefore, mercies are not cost-effective at breaking shields, meaning that you let your enemy get a whopping 2,700 mass ahead of you.

If you get mercied underneath a shield, then, all I can say is that you had it coming...

And if we're balancing the game based on what new players find "annoying and frustrating", then the balance will get nowhere fast. I find zock's T1 tank spam "annoying and frustrating" when I play him 1v1. Can we nerf tanks?

I also would like the mercy to be useful on other targets. When it was first introduced (and was ridiculously OP) it was very viable to snipe the first t2 pgen with a single mercy.
Maybe we could make mercys completly ignore shield? Hopefully together with a range nerv, that wouldn't make them op but useful to kill shielded stuff.
Any other suggestions?
Damage buff?
HP buff, speed decrease?
Range nerv, speed increase?

All of those save the second to last would make mercies even better than they currently are. Decreasing their speed any further would make them next to useless.

ps: I consider calling certain players playstyles "lazy" and thus categorizing them/their style as inferior very ill-mannered.

Well, I can write long posts more eloquently describing the behavioral characteristics that I see, complete with supporting evidence, but apparently no one reads them.

To save time, I'll instead put it bluntly: mercies can be countered with a ridiculous mass-effectiveness of < 10%, if you don't mind some micro. If you don't like micro, then make more <insert any of the many counters to mercies> and you can mass-effectively counter them with no micro whatsoever. Or, you can cease putting your ACU in harms way if you're unwilling to do either of those things.

If you disagree with that last paragraph, all I can say is to avoid playing ranked or any teamgame where both teams know what they're doing. You will be dominated because, yes, you likely are a noob. (yes, I said it, I'm a bad, evil, soulless, mean person... ) :p

I feel comfortable stating such because I used to be a noob who hated mercies and thought they were cheap/lame/OP/imba/scourage of the game/ruining FA. I got over it, realized the problem was with me, not the game, and am slightly less noob now. I realized my error and have been (I think) very patiently trying to explain it to save others the time.

[Evil_mind]

But, if I may condense your post (since we don't like being wordy): you don't think you should have to scout, and that < 10% mass should counter a tactic?

And you claim that *I'm* not realistic?

For someone who doesn't want to be wordy, you sure do ask explanation for obvious things. Lets say you scouted mercies in someone's base with interceptor, once mercies are out of your sight and radar range, they'll not be scouted anymore, when that person will finally send his mercies towards your ACU, on your radar they'll be "dots" again. Do you poses the ability to know when mercies are coming at you, so you can send scout exactly in their direction? Sure thats possible sometimes, even just lucky scout, but can you do that in at least in 70-80% of your matches?

1 gunship will be shot down by the ML's AA weapon. I can only assume that the rest of your post will be thought out equally as well...

Okay, 1 gunship will kill GC, are you more happy with that example?

New replay attached, please watch

[uberge3k]

For someone who doesn't want to be wordy, you sure do ask explanation for obvious things. Lets say you scouted mercies in someone's base with interceptor, once mercies are out of your sight and radar range, they'll not be scouted anymore, when that person will finally send his mercies towards your ACU, on your radar they'll be "dots" again. Do you poses the ability to know when mercies are coming at you, so you can send scout exactly in their direction? Sure thats possible sometimes, even just lucky scout, but can you do that in at least in 70-80% of your matches?

Yes, I do, because it's quite obvious what dots are mercies and what aren't based on the size, grouping, and speed of them.

I welcome you to try mercying me in a sandbox. Two people have tried. Both have failed. Either I possess superhuman micro skills, or it really is that easy to do.

Okay, 1 gunship will kill GC, are you more happy with that example?

1 T2 gunship will take 30 minutes to kill a GC.

Yes, that example is perfectly illustrative of my point. Expecting 1 gunship to kill 1 GC is exactly as sane as expecting your ACU to be impervious to all forms of attack.

(yes, now I'm deliberately exaggerating with "all forms of attack" instead of qualifying it, because you simply aren't responding to any of my points.)

New replay attached, please watch

Your target had no radar. Well, it did, but it had no energy to run that radar, hence it wouldn't do anything useful.

Target switching is indeed working as intended, as I proved with my replay upon Ze_PilOt's request. Target switching works the same with mercies as it does with any other high-priority air targets - it automatically targets them as soon as they are identified. Overriding this behavior, if even possible (I don't believe that it is), would be ridiculous - why should the target switching with mercies behave any differently? They shouldn't. Mercies are just an air unit, like any other. If the reason they're "special" is because they can snipe your ACU, well, the same can happen with F/Bs, T1 bombers, gunships, strats, etc, etc, etc...

[Evil_mind]

Watch it again, t3 pgen on the top side of the map. So radar was working, mercies flew right over 7 t2 and 4 t1 AA's that were in front of acu and got a kill. I'm sure you can move aa's even further and still get a kill, can even add some interceptors but they'll obviously get distracted by my air, just like in actual games

If I were trying to snipe you on sandbox that is pointless, because you're knowing they're coming 100%. I dare you to TML snipe me in sandbox, will that EVER work? You're excluding the surprise factor out completely, you can never be sure when or IF snipe coming, all the games I played, it comes anywhere in between 15-50 min. Besides team games and 1v1 is huge difference, we're talking about mercies in teamgames

You're not the only one who's struggling to understand logic. If you think that 1 int can prevent mercy snipe, neglecting numerous factors that would not let that happen, why is gunship killing collosus is any different? Lets make it 2 t3 UEF gunships, thats almost 10% of GC cost and will kill him pretty quickly. You call that being realistic?

Yes, I do, because it's quite obvious what dots are mercies and what aren't based on the size, grouping, and speed of them.

Did you know you can make t1 int fly at the same speed as mercies? So you would never distinguish them. Just make them move keeping formation.

[MonkeyFun]

MonkeyFun, please explain this video then and tell me TA4Life's AA didn't deserve at least one kill: http://youtu.be/UWGwmKrTLwE

Actually in that video the aa killed one mercy. Thus, it DID save TA as even he says later on, one more mercy would have killed him. Therefore, if he had no aa, it would have been a successful snipe.

[FunkOff]

Actually in that video the aa killed one mercy. Thus, it DID save TA as even he says later on, one more mercy would have killed him. Therefore, if he had no aa, it would have been a successful snipe.

Are you of the opinion that counters and mitigation are the same?

[-_V_-]

Uber, I salute your motivation and courage

[eXivo]

rofl uber, why do u bother with these guys? it's obvious they won't listen to reason

i think u guys should play against each other, and u won't let even a single mercy through.


and if i may join this nonsense for a sec, t2fac+mercies cost like 2k mass or so, that means that unless ur losing by a lot, u must've invested that 2k mass into something else while ur enemy went for mercies, that could be either aa, air, t2 land, or simply more spam, in any case u have an advantage on some other front, and if u utilize it, the aeon player won't have mass to spare for the mercies, case closed.

if u wish to argue some more come to gpgnet, where u can get kicked for spamming nonsense.

cheers