"Mercies" are too good!

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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby TA4Life » 31 Dec 2011, 23:22

It seems to be pointless to compare a unit like the mercy to other bombers. It is very unique in the way it attacks. Single pass, 100% accuracy. It is very unique in its weaknesses: Very low HP, low fuel. 3603 basically removed the second weakness, since now the mercy has plenty of fuel to fly around most maps that are played.(you can snipe opponents mexes on setons now)
The very low HP weakness only works when it actually gets shot. If the mercy isn't shot because the opponent had no units to shoot at it with, then there is no discussion. If the mercy doesn't get shot because t1 and t2 flak miss, it becomes interesting. This is precisely where the discussion should take place. Not a very broad discussion about the game in general.
Is it ok to have a unit that has t2 cost, comes in at the t2 stage, has very effective and unique attacking attributes, and in some CHANCE cases no weaknesses. I think the main point here is CHANCE. It is possible to gamble with the mercy because counters besides t3 air are never 100% effective.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby MonkeyFun » 01 Jan 2012, 00:56

While I agree with TA in that asf absolutely slaughter mercies, the aeon t2 fighter is also very effective at dealing with them. Since they both come in at the same point in the game and fighters are cheaper than mercies I don't see how any balanced game with an air player on each side should have to worry about mercy snipes.
Nobody expects the mercy inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise, surprise and fear - our two weapons! ...and ruthless efficiency - our three weapons! Fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the aeon - four!
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby IceDreamer » 01 Jan 2012, 01:32

https://rapidshare.com/files/291517012/ ... SCFAReplay

I just did this because I was bored and curious. The Radar is carefully positioned as close behind my ACU as could be expected in a real game. I surrounded my ACU with what is frankly and UNreasonable amount of ground-based AA, and also had Interceptors on a patrol loop, as they would be in a real game.

I send in 8 Mercies. Ignore the first attack, I got the timing hopelessly wrong, no harm done though. On the second assault, yes, most of them got shot down, but TWO GOT THROUGH. If they had not split into 2 and 6 like that, more would have got through. If I had timed my run better, more would have got through. If I had sent a single scout through, more would get through. This is where the rub is. You can counter with 'Micro your Interceptors' and 'Why should such a small amount of mass counter so much?' if you want, but that is not the point. Frankly, the amount of AA I had there was much more than you could be expected to have in a real game. An attack by T2 Bombers would have dealt about 1/2 the damage, I think, and equivilent mass in T2 Gunships would only have done 1/4 of the damage. I intend to fully test the comparisons to other units, and I intend to test what happens in each case with micro on both sides... My hypothesis? Mercies will get through when other units do not, and they will do more damage when they do than should be allowed. They will be able to kill 'Safe' ACUs even when that player micros their AA.

We shall see.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby TA4Life » 01 Jan 2012, 01:36

The key word is "balanced" teams. When teams are balanced it is much easier to deal with mercies, but just like t2 gunships mercies make unbalanced teams even more futile for the weaker team. The players who decide to play with noobs against the stackers get punished faster and are really given no chance in 3603. (but that is a different story)

The point with mercies is that even with even teams they are still a good gamble, since you can't expect asf to be everywhere all at once and they give a massive payoff when it comes to acu and experimental sniping.

You can think of units in terms of how quickly you can transfer resources(mass/power) into damage dealt to your opponent. The mercy is by far the best unit in this regard. This ability should come with a big weakness in my opinion. The discussion should whether this weakness is sufficient at this point. I personally think it is fine the way it is. Although I really enjoy going rambo with acu, it is one of the most fun things to do and given that the acu has already been castrated in 3603 with power storage the mercies really make me want to play 3599.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby uberge3k » 01 Jan 2012, 19:25

It's funny how, despite my very best efforts, we haven't made any progress in 13 pages.

Ze_PilOt wrote:Short version :

When Mercies were really OP, all games (ranked or not), were won with mercies.
So win all your games with it, and post the replays.


We proved that flak and AA behaves exactly the same vs mercies as any other air unit.

So.

Win all your games with it, and post the replays.

If you can't, it obviously can't be "too good", can it?
Ze_PilOt wrote:If you want something to happen, do it yourself.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby FunkOff » 01 Jan 2012, 19:39

uberge3k wrote:Win all your games with it, and post the replays.

If you can't, it obviously can't be "too good", can it?


Obviously.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby Karottenrambo » 01 Jan 2012, 20:25

uberge3k wrote:Win all your games with it, and post the replays.

If you can't, it obviously can't be "too good", can it?


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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby Plasma_Wolf » 01 Jan 2012, 20:32

uberge3k wrote:It's funny how, despite my very best efforts, we haven't made any progress in 13 pages.

Ze_PilOt wrote:Short version :

When Mercies were really OP, all games (ranked or not), were won with mercies.
So win all your games with it, and post the replays.


We proved that flak and AA behaves exactly the same vs mercies as any other air unit.

So.

Win all your games with it, and post the replays.

If you can't, it obviously can't be "too good", can it?

The seraphim resto field upgrade from 3599 was obviously OP. I managed to win games against players with my experience level exploiting the resto field. But it was still OP.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby uberge3k » 01 Jan 2012, 21:08

I merely repeated the common sense that Ze_PilOt wrote in the first page.

Funny how no one will disagree with him to his face, but will argue with and flame me to the end of time when I'm only supporting his decision.
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Re: "Mercies" are too good!

Postby pip » 01 Jan 2012, 22:23

uberge3k wrote:I merely repeated the common sense that Ze_PilOt wrote in the first page.

Funny how no one will disagree with him to his face, but will argue with and flame me to the end of time when I'm only supporting his decision.


He may agree with you but your arguments tend to irk more. Pilot's simple statement, that there was not such a fuss about the mercy for the last three years can be aknowledged by anyone. He's cautious about balance but not as assumptive as you are in your analysis.

The thing is : there seems to be a big fuss about the mercy now. Quite a few players are annoyed by this unit, because they often feel cheated. Maybe it's just because they are rusty and have to get used to the mercy snipes again, or maybe they just got fed up with a "cheap strategy" (by cheap i don't mean ressources) that spoils their fun too often. That's the real issue. All the arguments about the mercy being balanced may be true, it doesn't nullify the fact that this is a unit that can get you a lucky win more often than not. With mercy, you often don't win with skill, but with luck, unless you got someone totally unprepared, in which case that's acceptable, unlike when you are prepared, and you are unlucky (and your team mates as well), and you lose.

What is to be done with it? Let the "whiners"complain all they want and do nothing? Fix mercy's range? Fix mobile AA behaviour? I don't know, but if the game can be improved one way or the other for everyone it's worth taking the issue into consideration.
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