"Mercies" are too good!

[Ze_PilOt]

Mercies fly over flaks - thats a fact, not an assumption

That's really not a fact but an assumption. They don't "fly over flak and laugh at them" :

Flaks have a very low turn rate. An inty passing by is enough to make them turn. They don't have time to turn again in order to kill the mercies following it.
So, it's not that mercies can fly over flak, but flak are too slow to react to mercies.
Try launching some mercies without doing the inty diversion tactic, they will die horribly. Even 10 vs 1 flak.

Reducing the detonation range will hardly solve that : Again, it's a really slow turn rate. (The only thing that will change is that you will need the inty to be more close to the mercies, something you want to do either way to avoid manual focusing of the mercies by any other flying unit).
I really don't know where that assumption that reducing the range by 1 will magically solve any imbalance came from. Not from testing I can tell.


BUT, manually aiming the mercies, or move your ACU away (and so make more range between your ACU and the flaks) can help.

Gunship can avoid flak with the exact same tactic. The only difference is that they need more time to kill, meaning that the flaks have time to rotate and kill them. Also, they have the bad habit to spread in circle around a target, so if you focus a flak, at least one gunship will be in the bad spot.

Try to dodge UEF F/b coming from 5 differents directions : Good luck.

[uberge3k]

Will that trick with firebeetles ever work in actual game? I seriously doubt. But mercy ignoring defenses happen very often, there are minimum 2-4 replays proving that. So no, firebeetles would never get acu behind t1-t2 turrets.

What replays?

There was a single replay. In a sandbox. That proves only that, yes, flak has a slow turn rate.

What replays???

T3 strat bomber is huge mass investment

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 04,DAA0206
One T3 bomber costs the same as 7 mercies, or just one mercy more than it takes to snipe an ACU.

Now you suddenly care about the mass required to snipe someone? For the past 10 pages you have been repeating "well 6 mercies is nothing in a teamgame". So, 6 mercies = nothing, 7 mercies = huge investment?

T2 bomber attacks can be dodged, mercies cant.

Wait, before, micro wasn't OK - but now it is???

They should not kill safely hidden acu behind flaks.

Using that logic, neither should, say, T3 bombers. Yet they do.

Nerf T3 bombers?

How many times should I repeat, that mercies are NOT imbalanced to that point, so you can get 100% win rate. They. Are. Too. Good. Their counter - aa - should actually be able to counter them, right now they can be only countered by mercies, but not flaks.

AA is a secondary counter for when you have lost air, and thus have let your enemy start building bombers/gunships/mercies.

Even though it is NOT the ideal counter, flak CAN counter mercies, assuming you use > 0 micro.

Mercies fly over flaks - thats a fact, not an assumption, based on game experience.

We just proved that gunships, bombers, etc fly over flaks in exactly the same way, and only when the attacker micros their air to distract the AA, and you are not microing yourself.

It happens alot and it doesn't look right, safe ACU should not get killed like that.

I get killed by T1 tanks a lot and it doesn't look right, my ACU should not get killed like that.

Why gunships cant completely ignore flaks, or t2 bombers, or any t2 land unit cant ignore t2 pd (except missile launchers, their counter).

As Ze_PilOt just pointed out, they can.

Micro is required everywhere, noone said that we want mercies to be countered with 0 micro. Its the huge amount of micro required is the problem, right now as you said, you need constant scouting, always keep an eye on your acu, flaks as we learned are useless, get air near your acu, distinguish mercies from any other air on radar and so on.

It's two clicks to send ints to kill the mercies.

If you don't scout enough to know when a mercy snipe will happen, they you could be stomped by a dozen different tactics in the same way.

Scouting is everything in this game. If you play it a bit more, It think you'll come to understand that.

What I don't understand is that mercies were not changed since 3599, except fuel (and we can agree that is not the "problem" here).
Neither flaks or any AA.

So why nobody complained about them for, what, three years, and all of a sudden it's a big nightmare ?

Maybe it's the fact that air t3 was so powerful than mercies where just skipped as a viable option ?

You should also try any kind of fighter/bombers then...

I dont know, I started playing again just recently. In tunngle people didn't play on "assassination" mode, so losing acu was no big deal. On gpgnet I played just a little and only 1v1. And the problem with mercies really sticks out in teamgames with assassination

Assassination has always been the preferred game type for any serious game. Otherwise, combombing is the de facto strategy.

[lebensnebel]

But that mobile AA doesn't make your ACU mercy-save is no assumption.
I stay with my point that having mobile AA with your ACU (+radar) should be a viable counter for mercys.
And it really is, mostly! Usually having 2 t1 mobile AA with your ACU+moving ACU back and AA to the front when you spot or suspect mercys on radar is just fine.
But sometimes even better protection (as shown in the u-tube clip with t2 shield) fails and it just feels very random and inconsistent. And that is not only frustrating for newer players, but also for a lot of good players. Plz stop calling everbody who thinks mercys could use a small nerv a noob.

Also, because the mass efficiency of mercys and their counters is brought up again and again, plz admit that in a team game this does not play a huge factor.

It can actually benefit you, for example in the following scenario:
3v3, 2 front guys,1 back/air guy.
Team A: 2 front players push with landspam/gun, back player builds ints and brings ACU to front
Team B: 2 front players also push, back player techs to mercy and stays in base
->Team B gets pushed back cause lack of support
->Backplayer from Team B snipes front players which thought they were winning and (over) extended.
Yeah that's all great and nice if tactics work out, but this shows that the sniper requiring more mass to snipe is not a big issue in team games.

Regarding the question why this didn't come up earlier, my guess is:
a) The change in air balance increases T2 air usage
b) In FAF there are more good players condensed, who put tactics like AA-distracion into practice

@Uber:Cause you like picking posts apart so much:

What replays?

For example the vid with the stat t2 shield.

One T3 bomber costs the same as 7 mercies, or just one mercy more than it takes to snipe an ACU.

One T3 bomber doesn't instagib an ACU. Also noone would ever complain about t3 bomber loughing at t2/t1 AA. Why do you make useless comparisons?

We just proved that gunships, bombers, etc fly over flaks in exactly the same way, and only when the attacker micros their air to distract the AA, and you are not microing yourself.

And we also proved that distracting AA is not an issue with gunships and bombers, cause they take longer to get the kill.

Evil_mind wrote:Why gunships cant completely ignore flaks, or t2 bombers, or any t2 land unit cant ignore t2 pd (except missile launchers, their counter).

As Ze_PilOt just pointed out, they can.

No. Next to pds there is usually plenty more stuff (like t1 spam) around so this is not an issue.

I get killed by T1 tanks a lot and it doesn't look right, my ACU should not get killed like that.

And thats not helping at all

[uberge3k]

But that mobile AA doesn't make your ACU mercy-save is no assumption.
I stay with my point that having mobile AA with your ACU (+radar) should be a viable counter for mercys.
And it really is, mostly! Usually having 2 t1 mobile AA with your ACU+moving ACU back and AA to the front when you spot or suspect mercys on radar is just fine.

Two T1 mobile AA cost 56 mass: http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... bp=UAL0104

A mercy snipe costs 1800 mass.

Please explain to me why it should be possible to have a unit that can kill 36x times its cost in mass, and then continue being useful for other things? This kind of mass-effectiveness is simply unheard of.

And yet, it is possible.

And yet, mercies are what's considered OP.

If anything, this proves mercies need a buff.

But sometimes even better protection (as shown in the u-tube clip with t2 shield) fails and it just feels very random and inconsistent. And that is not only frustrating for newer players, but also for a lot of good players. Plz stop calling everbody who thinks mercys could use a small nerv a noob.

Show me a good player who is frustrated by a mercy snipe. I don't know of any. If you get sniped, you had it coming.

Also, because the mass efficiency of mercys and their counters is brought up again and again, plz admit that in a team game this does not play a huge factor.

I will not, because such a statement would be patently false. Simply put, if the enemy has mass for mercies, you have mass for counters to their mercies, and if you don't, then you are losing anyway.

Otherwise, this debate is thoroughly pointless as I can simply say "my team made a nuke, GG" because "mass isn't a huge factor" to counter any argument.

It can actually benefit you, for example in the following scenario:
3v3, 2 front guys,1 back/air guy.
Team A: 2 front players push with landspam/gun, back player builds ints and brings ACU to front
Team B: 2 front players also push, back player techs to mercy and stays in base
->Team B gets pushed back cause lack of support
->Backplayer from Team B snipes front players which thought they were winning and (over) extended.
Yeah that's all great and nice if tactics work out, but this shows that the sniper requiring more mass to snipe is not a big issue in team games.

Where are Team A's ints? If Team B's back player is diverting economy to build mercies, Team A's back player can use that opportunity to solidify air superiority. If you have air superiority, you will not be able to mercy snipe someone unless he goes AFK. In which case drops / bombers / etc would have had a similarly devastating impact.

Regarding the question why this didn't come up earlier, my guess is:
a) The change in air balance increases T2 air usage
b) In FAF there are more good players condensed, who put tactics like AA-distracion into practice

a) In 3599, if you go straight to ASF you will necessarily be giving up early air superiority. A smart player could account for that and gain early air with T1 / T2 ints, and snipe someone with mercies.

Therefore, shouldn't mercy sniping be even more OP in 3599?

B) In a pro vs pro game, you won't see many mercy snipes happening. Why? Because pros won't let their ACU be mercied.

Therefore, the only way that argument could work is if it's a "pro" team vs a "noob" team, at which point the "noob" team will be stomped regardless of whether it's by mercies, strats, exps, or literally any other tactic.

I think we can all agree that "pro vs noob" games shouldn't be what the game is balanced for.

@Uber:Cause you like picking posts apart so much:

What replays?

For example the vid with the stat t2 shield.

We already went over this when it was posted the very first time. In that situation, the attacker invested more mass in the snipe than TA4Life did in his defense. His AA was poorly placed, and it let the mercies through. That's the game, working as intended. Where's the problem?

One T3 bomber costs the same as 7 mercies, or just one mercy more than it takes to snipe an ACU.

One T3 bomber doesn't instagib an ACU. Also noone would ever complain about t3 bomber loughing at t2/t1 AA. Why do you make useless comparisons?

In what way are they useless?

A T3 bomber will eventually die to flak, after it gets about a dozen or so passes in. In the hyptothetical scenarios we're testing, no other units are involved aside from those which are accounted for. That's a basic scientific principle: remove as many variables as possible. Otherwise, you can say "oh, well my teammate over there kills the bomber with his stuff", neglecting the fact that any mass that teammate expends to counter that bomber is necessarily redirected from fighting his front, thus giving your team a mass advantage. If it isn't accounted for in such a way, comparisons are thoroughly useless, as the argument could simply be ended with "my team had a nuke, gg" at any time.

We just proved that gunships, bombers, etc fly over flaks in exactly the same way, and only when the attacker micros their air to distract the AA, and you are not microing yourself.

And we also proved that distracting AA is not an issue with gunships and bombers, cause they take longer to get the kill.

1. That's because gunships are not designed to snipe ACUs. They're designed to cause constant damage to a possibly moving target. They are far more versatile than a mercy is - the mercy is a single-purpose unit.

2. Hypothetical example: you send 10 strats at a target, with no backup. They will be killed by AA before they can drop.

Next, you send 10 strats at the same target, this time with some ASF leading them to distract the AA. The bombers drop their payload.

How is this any different?

Incidentally, gunships take ages to die from ints due to their high health, but can be shredded by flak. Conversely, mercies may be able to slip past the outer ranges of flak if the player isn't paying attention, but will die horribly to even a handful of ints.

Those are the proper counters to separate units working as expected. While all AA is effective to some degree to all air units, some AA is better than others at specific targets. That's why you tailor your defenses to the enemy's offenses.

That's the fundamental core of the game: seeing what your enemy is doing, ensuring that you can counter it, and then exploit the weaknesses he has.

No. Next to pds there is usually plenty more stuff (like t1 spam) around so this is not an issue.

Again with the "well my team pulls an ML out of their pocket and wins" arguments.

I get killed by T1 tanks a lot and it doesn't look right, my ACU should not get killed like that.

And thats not helping at all

Neither is posting things like this, which is what that quote was in response to, in an (apparently vain) attempt to point out its ridiculousness:

It happens alot and it doesn't look right, safe ACU should not get killed like that.

[MonkeyFun]

Hmmm so barely anyone has watched my replay, and yet still go under the false pretense that mercies fly right over aa. As should be obvious if anyone actually watched the replay, this is not the case. There are two separate occasions in one game where mercy snipes are shot down with varying (and supposedly ineffective) counters. By simply being able to predict the use of mercies by seeing that the aeon guy has t2 air, close to 4000 mass became a useless investment. "Scouting" doesn't always have to involve scouts

[Treble]

What I don't understand is that mercies were not changed since 3599, except fuel (and we can agree that is not the "problem" here).
Neither flaks or any AA.

So why nobody complained about them for, what, three years, and all of a sudden it's a big nightmare ?

Maybe it's the fact that air t3 was so powerful than mercies where just skipped as a viable option ?

You should also try any kind of fighter/bombers then...

I think it was the fact that at least someone on your team in 3599 had ASFs by the 7-8 min mark. That didn't give you much time to react with mercies to commanders that were pushing forward.

I think the F/B deaths don't hurt as much because you have time to try to dodge a few shots, get your air to try to kill them etc. You dont usually die in the first pass from F/Bs.

[uberge3k]

I think it was the fact that at least someone on your team in 3599 had ASFs by the 7-8 min mark. That didn't give you much time to react with mercies to commanders that were pushing forward.

This is incorrect.

Even on the back position in Setons in 3599, you typically don't start producing ASF until ~12 minutes. You can go earlier, but it will put you very, very far behind in eco.

Most maps don't have anywhere near the amount of reclaimables and mex's as the back spot in Setons, nor do you have as much protection (which nearly guarantees that you have nothing to do but eco).

[FunkOff]

Hmmm so barely anyone has watched my replay...

So you've noticed this too?

[Evil_mind]

Will that trick with firebeetles ever work in actual game? I seriously doubt. But mercy ignoring defenses happen very often, there are minimum 2-4 replays proving that. So no, firebeetles would never get acu behind t1-t2 turrets.

What replays?

There was a single replay. In a sandbox. That proves only that, yes, flak has a slow turn rate.

What replays???

I keep posting replays showing mercies flying over AA and sometimes even in front of int, you're simply ignoring them.

Sandbox replay proves that if you distract aa with couple int you can kill acu behind those AA. It happens in the actual games too, all the time. The first replay I posted is one of those actual games, mercies flying over flaks and in front of int.

Here's another similar replay, although flaks were not in front I did try to micro them, targeting dots that might be mercies, but still didn't get a single kill. But the most interesting part is mercies, once again, flying right in FRONT of interceptors and getting a kill.

Green player (me) gets sniped at 10:30 and I ask you to slow the game to -10 at exactly 10:20 and watch how last mercy that kills me flies right in front of 5 interceptors, even gets a couple shots from int but mercy survives.

I remember you telling me, that it's so unbelievably rare, that we shouldn't even look at it. The why in gods name I see that happening practically in every 3-4 games where players use mercy snipes? Yes, "things miss, thats game mechanics", "flaks turn slowly thats game mechanics", but mercies profit from that game mechanics more than any unit in the whole game. If PD or AA misses couple shots on any other unit - who cares, its no big deal. If any units attack is delayed for 1.5 sec - its also nothing. But if something misses mercies, or its attack is delayed even for 1 second - its end of the game, it ruins games.

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 04,DAA0206
One T3 bomber costs the same as 7 mercies, or just one mercy more than it takes to snipe an ACU.

Now you suddenly care about the mass required to snipe someone? For the past 10 pages you have been repeating "well 6 mercies is nothing in a teamgame". So, 6 mercies = nothing, 7 mercies = huge investment?

If he's talking about t3 bomber snipe, then usually its done with more than just 1 bomber. Thats why I called t3 bomber snipe - huge investment.
Are you going to snipe someone with just 1 t3 bomber? If enemy has it, usually your team has t3 aa or t3 int.

T2 bomber attacks can be dodged, mercies cant.

Wait, before, micro wasn't OK - but now it is???

Its easy as hell to dodge t2 bomber attacks, even low lvl player can do that. Compared the micro required to counter mercies (whole list of requirements), dodging its attack is really nothing.

They should not kill safely hidden acu behind flaks.

Using that logic, neither should, say, T3 bombers. Yet they do.

Nerf T3 bombers?

How much mass you need to perform t3 bomber snipe? Have I answered your question?

Even though it is NOT the ideal counter, flak CAN counter mercies, assuming you use > 0 micro.

On this replay I tried to focus my flaks on "dots" that might have been mercies and tried to run away with ACU. I used > 0 micro and yet flaks didn't kill any mercies, they exploded right before flaks hit them, they flew in front of interceptors, as usual.

I get killed by T1 tanks a lot and it doesn't look right, my ACU should not get killed like that.

I'm sure you can figure out yourself, why you got killed by t1 tanks.

[-_V_-]

Sandbox replay proves that if you distract aa with couple int you can kill acu behind those AA. It happens in the actual games too, all the time. The first replay I posted is one of those actual games, mercies flying over flaks and in front of int.

OMG you said it yourself "IF YOU DISTRACT AA". How hard is it to understand that's logical and it's entirely part of FA.
It's not specific to mercies.