Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

[noobymcnoobcake]

http://www.faforever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=307&start=0
vote on this link.

You NEVER see an unnasisted T3 fac online. The idea of not assisting a t3 fac is insane. EVERY T3 fac you see will be surounded by 20-50 T1 engineers. If you increase factorys buildpower you cut out the need for these engineers that otherwise just sit there and eat up CPU power that make the game slow.

What I am sugesting is T2 double buildpower and T3 fac triple buildpower. I dont care if you increase there cost from 3150 to 3500 for T3 or 800-900 for T2 as this increase in buildpower will improve gameplay I think. It is still good to assist a T3 fac instead of getting a new one but you wont need the insane amount of T1 enineers and if you get an early one you might not need to assist it.

There have been other topics on increasing engineers buildspeed and I agree that this would help. However I think increasing factorys buildpower it a better solution to the problem as even if T3 engineers and T1 engineers are the same buildrate-mass ratio people will still spam T1 engineers because they dont waste time getting T3 engineers when they could be getting T3 units.

T1 engineer - 10.4 mass/buildrate
T1 fac - 12 mass/buildrate
T2 fac - 26 mass/buildrate
T3 fac - 69.8 mass/buildrate

with changes
T2 fac - 13 mass/buildrate
T3 fac - 23.3 mass/buildrate

As you can see its better to spam t2 facs now than 1 t2 fac with engineers assiting.
and t3 facs are good too but assisting with T1 engineers is still cheaper than getting new fac.

you will get brick/percy in 1.20 with old t3 fac but 26 seconds with new buildrate. MUCH better.

this would also mean T3 facs are cheaper than engineering stations in 3603. Thius would solve some faction imbalance as well. also will help greatly with the units refuse the move on large maps bug as there wont be 400 T1 engineers a side.

[TA4Life]

Having engies do the assisting is a great feature for the following reasons:

1. Great target for the enemy, even t1 bombers are very effective at taking out bunches of these.

2. Having engies on separate projects allows to control the relative flow of resources into those projects. Sometime you want to go from 20/80% land/navy mass flow to a 50/50. This can easily be done by either switching engies from one project to another or pausing some of the engies.

3. The necessity to build engies for all projects makes it possibly to switch to projects such as exp construction without first building up an engie force. The engies are already there.

4. Engies that were used to construct the base and survived the front lines while recovering wreckage, need to be rewarded by being there at the end when their glorious armies are victorious.

[noobymcnoobcake]

Yes those are all valid points

bad reasons for engineers
1)they use up lots of cpu
2)they takeup half your unit limit on big maps
3)it makes game bugged on big map where units freze
4) makes game unbalanced as UEF and cybran get engineering stations that can assist facs when mass isnt so important but unit cap is
5)requires more micro

yes I agree you can shift builpower to navy/land/air with engineers if you need to. But even if these changes were brought in it would STILL BE CHEAPER to use T1 enginers than T2 or T3 facs.

also you need 2 t1 mex to support t1 fac.
you need 1 t2 mex to support t2 fac
you need half t3 mex with storage to support t3 fac.

why not 2 mex of same tech level to support a fac? makes more sense and would be the case wit these changes.

[TA4Life]

I don't think increasing build capacity of t2 t3 factories is a bad idea.

I don't think this will stop people from still spamming engies to assist factories.

Set unit limit to 1k always. If you are approaching 1k units it is better that half your units are engies rather than asf, in terms of cpu usage.

Kennels and hives are not an imbalance, they are part of faction diversity.

Aeon have excellent toys to counter this late build capacity deficit, para, salvation, best t3 arty, eye of Rhianne and so does sera with t4 bombers and t4 nukes.

We only had that unit freeze on setons when someone was an obvious lagger. And we had many games with thousands of engies.

[noobymcnoobcake]

1) yes asf use more cpu than T1 engineer an I do ALWAYS set unit limit to 1k. but the fact that you have little choice in the assisting factory thing is annoying. you can only chose not to assist facs in T1.

advantages of asssisting t1 fac
cheaper (but only just)
engineers can run away
engineers can do other things
disadvantages
they die in single bommbing run
they have less hp than facs
they feed enemy units veterancy

why cant it be like this for every tier of fac? its balanced.

2) hives and kennels were op in 3599. They are not as op now but still massive advantage on big maps and when building base structures anyway. The fact that they dont all bump into each other speeds built time of stuff up by like 50%.

and with the units freze it happens every time I play an 81k map. I got very good cpu (3.7ghz quad) and so did everybody else as there was at least three thousand units in the game and same sim as normal.

[Frozen_byte]

Don't forget the endless bumping if your T3 fac is surrounded by T1 Engineers... It hurts a lot if your Harbinger is still bumping his way out and the second just went out of the fac (and helps bumping).

You can still control the Flow of your Mass, just Assist your land factory, and leave the navy alone...

It's definitely worth a try to improve the buildpower of your facs.

[noobymcnoobcake]

yes its fun t watch units bumb, revense, bumb, reverse. over and over again they take the same path as before too...

[FunkOff]

I think most of the problems surrounding tech 1 engineer spam would be solved by buffs to tech 2 and tech 3 engineer build rates. Messing with the factories is unnecessary.... and many people dislike it because it's harder to keep factories running with infinite ques.

[TA4Life]

looks like my last post didn't make it.

People need to play more setons so that they would know how to micro their engies.(check out how people assist their naval factories) (engie assist engie assisting fac, with a fac attack move mixed in)

These are features:
advantages of asssisting t1 fac
cheaper (but only just)
engineers can run away
engineers can do other things
disadvantages
they die in single bommbing run
they have less hp than facs
they feed enemy units veterancy

Having a base composed of well armored and weak components, allows for more creative methods of attack.

Don't make the game look like supcom 2. Leaving building capacity with the engies gives supcom FA much more freedom and gives the game more depth. Of course there is the added micro cost, but it is actually minimal if you learn what to do, one time.

PS. don't play 81x81 map and expect it to work. The game should not be sacrificed in order to make 81x81 games playable.

[FunkOff]

Don't make the game look like supcom 2. Leaving building capacity with the engies gives supcom FA much more freedom and gives the game more depth. Of course there is the added micro cost, but it is actually minimal if you learn what to do, one time.

Yes, but ideally it should be a strategic choice to use faster, more vulnerable engineers or slower but more sturdy factories. At present, engineers are SO MUCH better than factories at building that you MUST assist with engineers or you cannot hope to win.