Karottenrambo wrote:That you have to spend to much ressources to counter it, Restorers were also be defeated by asf spam with equal mass investment if I have it correct in mind, nevertheless they were brokenly imba.
Well... Restorers were a pretty unique case for a number of reasons..
1) Restos had very high HP/cost (7200 HP for 1200 Mass =
6hp/Mass, which is much more than a
UEF Stinger's 1100/240 =
4.58Hp/Mass or a T3 Broadsword's
3.57 Hp/Mass).
Higher HP/Mass in a higher tier unit is common in land and naval balance, but not for air units. In all cases it creates balance problems because it compounds two other high-tier vs low-tier imbalances (weaker swarms suffer more DPS drop-off, and stronger units get a huge edge due to FA's wonky veterancy system).
2) Restorers benefited heavily from FA's vet system, especially since they could be racking up air kills and ground kills simultaneously.
3) Restorers were relatively cheap (especially in regards to power), so players could rush 1-2 out pretty quickly..
4) Resto AA allowed them to defeat logical counter units like Ints and ASFs. (Restos could actually be countered (per cost) with T1 Ints, but it wasn't always easy to do. My observation is that most players seemed to fail at this because they didn't seem to think of Restos as an AA unit, so they would trickle in Ints or ASFs to attack one-by-one, feeding veterancy..)
5) Restos could be built faster than T1 Ints (per cost), which means that even if you knew you could beat Restos with Ints, you'd still need to build multiple T1 facs (or get more assisting going than your opponent) to pull it off.
6) ^Because of #4 and #5, Resto AA allowed a Resto-spamming player to take and hold air superiority while they were on the offense, and because of #1 (their exceptionally high HP), they were able to defeat a few mobile flak.
7) #3 and #6 combine to create a positive feedback loop where, once an Aeon player rushed to T3 and gained an edge with Restos, they could keep spamming Restos and attacking with them to keep the enemy suppressed.
In 3599, Restos weren't actually that bad in the later game (they could indeed be countered by ASFs, and actually, even by T1 INTS, for cost). But the big combination of factors made them easier to use and so much harder to counter.
Some of those factors have some correlation with T2 gunships, but T2 gunships clearly don't measure up the same way.
1) T2 Gunships do have good HP/Mass, but it's not as extreme as Restos.
I'd argue that their HP is a necessary design choice because Gunships are meant to be a (relatively) slow 'flying tank', able to fight in contested territory and soak up some damage from enemy AA. (Compare T2 Gunships to the T2 Fighter Bombers. F/Bs have better speed, better alpha-strike-damage, better AoE, and arguably better DPS, plus a decent anti-air ability. The Gunships trade all of that for extra HP so they can attack through enemy AA (and the ability to hover and deliver a more constant DPS).
2) AFAIK, T2 gunships don't tend to benefit that much from veterancy. They certainly could, but they're not picking up easy kills the way Restorers did vs trickle-attack T1 Ints.
3) T2 Gunships may be relatively cheap and easy to rush..
4) ...But T2 gunships obviously can't beat T1 Ints or T2 mobile flak. Even a single T2 flak is a strong deterrent vs gunships (although a few could overwhelm and kill one).
5) T2 gunships can be built a bit faster (Mass wise) than T1 Ints, but T2 gunships have no AA ability vs T1 Ints so they don't necessarily need parity here.
#6 T2 gunships are a one-trick pony (ground attack). Unlike Restos, if you build T2 gunships you're not building air superiority. This makes rushing for T2 gunships riskier since, if the enemy builds more Ints and wins air superiority, they can shoot down the gunships and you've lost your investment, possibly without even inflicting damage.
#7 Because T2 gunships can be contained/repelled with T1 Ints and T2 flak, a player that is caught off guard by a gunship rush still has a reasonable chance to protect their core Mexes/Pgens so they can regain the initiative. This is a big difference vs Restorer rushing. If your enemy hits you wish Gunships and you drive them off and then build up for air superiority, you may ultimately destroy their gunships and force them to take a loss on that investment. That's the classic rock-paper-scissors balance that comes with hard counters in RTS games. You can really punish an opponent if they build too much of unit A, so long as you have a strong counter unit.
In practical terms, this means that
a player that doesn't have gunships should have an advantage in
T1 Ints, or
on land, or
at sea. The nice thing is that
land, sea, and air all have counters available that can defeat the gunships, so if your opponent hits you with gunships y
ou should be able to win air superiority with Ints
or press your land or sea advantage under cover from
T2 mobile flak or
T2 Cruisers.
The only potential problem I see here is that:
T2 gunships may be very hard (or impossible?) to defend against with T1 anti-air and/or T1 naval.
That means that T1 air spam is
almost a necessity if there's any chance that your opponent might get T2 gunships before you have T2 land or T2 naval. (Cruisers are of course pretty awesome vs Gunships).
Personally, I don't like for a tier upgrade to be so totally dominant because that creates a race to see who can tech up and get the unbeatable edge first. There are other examples of this (T2 kite bots, T2 naval, and of course T3 ASFs used to be pretty dominant over earlier tiers in 3599). But 3603 has moved towards more even balance between tiers, and I think that's a good thing.
...
So, if you want my 'short' version:My only concern with T2 gunships is that they may be too hard to counter with T1 land/sea units, which may make rushing to them an automatic advantage even if your enemy has already been building T1 AA.
I think they can be countered by T1 Ints, but the targeting priorities muddy that a bit.. and I honestly prefer that T1 Int spam isn't an absolute necessity, just because I'd like to imagine a game where focusing on land, naval, or air are all somewhat viable.
I'd also like to keep T2 Gunship HP high(ish), since that's one of their main advantages over F/Bs. Also, T2 gunships already get eaten by T2 flak (~7.5 seconds for one flak to destroy one gunship, with 2-3 flak and their damage radius of 4, flak can literally destroy whole squadrons of gunships or other T1/T2 air in a matter of seconds..)
So...
-Maybe nerf their E-cost (30-40%?) to delay their appearance on the battlefield? (This brings their Mass:E ratio close to T3..)
-Slight mass nerf would be ok with me too (250-270?)
-Nerf their speed (to 11?) so they're slightly worse at raiding and easier to anticipate with AA? (Which further distinguishes them from the F/Bs)
-Buff T1 AA so it's a semi-competent counter for gunships? (I haven't tested T1 AA vs gunships so I have no idea how this works out..)