Navy fine tuning

[Ze_PilOt]

It's not just a battleship vs battleship problem.
First there is the Battlecruiser for UEF that decimate navy easily.

Then shields. Any faction can have shields on water, or/and nice t3 subs but cybran.
ie. add 8000 hp / Bulwark.

And at that stage, stealth is easily countered.

And take in consideration that if a cybran must attack a base with his battleship, he needs more of them then others faction against it, because aeon/sera/uef shields are cheaper, stronger, more regen, and easier to spam.

[Myrdral]

I agree that stealth vs shields should definitely be considered when balancing navy. Shields are much more difficult to counter than stealth is the main problem? Is the best way to fix this to keep cybran battleship with a much shorter build time?

Great point about the battlecruiser. I guess we need to look at a few more cross-faction differences in units in this evaluation of naval build times. UEF has their battlecruiser and Cybran has a cheaper carrier that can use the resource difference for some air units instead. Then experimentals from both factions can all play a part in a naval battle. Air and land can certainly get in on the fight over water as well. The total naval package of a faction should be compared against the total package of another faction. Battleships between UEF and Cybran may be balanced very closely with each other, but are the other units which can have even the smallest impact on a naval battle balanced?

Earlier in this thread, focus was on balancing destroyers with battleships within a single faction. This seemed much simpler and resulted in numbers like 24,000-36,000 build time for non-Cybran battleship. Another poster had a number close to 21,000. This seems like a good start while we consider if there is imbalance betweenstealth vs shield and carrier vs battlecruiser. *edit*I think 30,000 for non-Cybran battleships and keeping 2/3 of that build time if you want 20,000 for the Cybran battleship.*edit*

[Ze_PilOt]

Don't know if it's the best solution, but looking at 3615 replays, it works.

[Myrdral]

Don't know if it's the best solution, but looking at 3615 replays, it works.

You are referring to the shorter build time on the Cybran Galaxy here right? Ya I like that it builds in 2/3 the time of the UEF for now. I do think there is a better solution but it involves considering so many more units it is daunting. *edit* Megalith and Atlantis are definitely huge players in the Cybran vs UEF navy balance. Even Soul Ripper and Fatboy can easily hit naval units. Aeon and Seraphim are even more difficult with all the hover units.

[pip]

If you want to set battleships buildtime to around 30 000, I advise you to pick 28800 (= 8 minutes) for all but Cybran, and 25200 for Cybran Battleship (= 7 minutes). This way you got a simple and meaningful difference that is easy to "number".
And don't forget that Aeon Tempest has 12000 buildtime only, so be careful not to make Aeon too powerful on see because of it.

[Myrdral]

Are experimentals in FAF built with 100% or 25% engineer build rate?

Assuming battleships are 30,000 build time.

If 25% engineer build rate, then Tempest build time should be around 48,750(slightly less as the battleships do get full build rate from the factory) to have the same build time per mass as the battleships.

If 100% engineer build rate, then Tempest build time should be around 195,000(slightly less as the battleships do get full build rate from the factory) to have the same build time per mass as the battleships.

Build times on other T3 navy and experimentals should also be looked at if the battleship and Tempest build times goes up.

[SeraphimLeftNut]

I would like to ask you the question, that I asked Funkoff a long time ago.

You say T3 navy was never used in 3599. (Setons used it all the time)

What maps do you expect people to make T3 navy on?

Roanoke?, EOTS?, white fire?, canis river?

On all these maps t2 navy is more than enough to reach any point on land, making T3 navy is a total overkill.

It seems that with the intention to get T3 navy used on these maps you make t2 navy obsolete.

Notice that the players who play the only large naval map, setons, were unanimously against the new naval changes and lot of them left the game because it was ruined from them.

Also: engie spam is mandatory in any naval battle, this will not go away by either making the build time of the battleship 100 or 100k. In one case you will have dozens of battleships going at it, in the other you will have a single battleship in late game turning the course of a t2 battle.(I think it is clear what is more desirable)

About the tempest: The tempest has about 70% health of the other battleships, it also has a very low rate of fire, and its large square shape makes it extremely easy to hit with t2 bombers, it also costs about double mass of the other battleships. I think the tempest captures the aeon philosophy perfectly, its like the aurora, very powerful, but weak when attacked. I do agree that it is by far the best battleship out there though, but it isn't obviously unbalanced vs others, this is one battleship, you could run over quite easily with frigates and t2 bombers and force it underwater. It is also quite easily sniped with cruise missiles because of its large size and slow movement.

[Ze_PilOt]

You say T3 navy was never used in 3599. (Setons used it all the time)

Never saw that in 5 years. Unless the game is already won.
TA4Life did a lot of "old" 3599 replays, not a single t3 naval in these either.

Also, big news : Yes, t3 units are supposed to make t2 obselete, land, air, or naval.

I don't even see why you talk about EOTS and Canis. 5x5 maps with no sea possible, and a 10x10. (white fire is small too).
You rarely see t3 air on canis or T3 land on EOTS.

I'm thinking burial mounds, ranaoke (THE naval map), setons that 40x40 FFA map I forgot the name, ...

[SeraphimLeftNut]

Here is an example where t3 navy makes an appearance
http://www.gamereplays.org/supremecomma ... &id=203627

T3 subs were used very often. Battlecruisers were also often used by players like styr and lappen playnig UEF, with their turtle strats.

For bombardment, the aeon missile ships was used all the time. UEF and Sera battleships were also used very often, but its true they came in after the battle to capitalize on naval control. Their range and poor accuracy made them perfect for breaking land fortifications and countering fatties.

An old TA4Life video showing t3 navy being used on setons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STg9xMuXxsY

Cybran didn't usually make their battleship because they had the walking destroyer and the mass was always much better spent making a megalith.

The reason I included canis river on that list was for sarcasm, there really aren't any naval maps that are commonly played, except for setons, except for 3. EOTS, roanoke and white fire(almost never played anymore).

[Ze_PilOt]

Sarcasm is very productive, thanks.