OC and the new vet system

[theZJ]

I do not understand - this discussion is about new vet system or OC in general?
Cause it seems like the latter.
I have seen all too many times how the oh-so-godly overcharging ACU was defeated by mobile land force, so the ZJ and Pavese points seem lacking in proof. Especially when they claim that TA and Cyth do not understand the game and promote turtling, what the f***. Watch some of their replays, for gods sake!
So we should probably return to the vet system topic.
I'd prefer a simple solution - get ACU veterancy back to unit-count based, not unit-value based. Fixed.

The new vet system is good, but it does not work when you can one shot every unit and get greater reward. Instead of changing the better vet system change something that is bugging this game for a long time.

I did not accuse them of liking turtle. But they accuse me of liking to turtle and then give me advise how to defend a push with turtle which is like sort of weird.

Also you don't have to watch this discussion from a 1v1 perspective only, where you can avoid the commander and t3 comes into play on a rather small amount of maps.
Rather look at it from a non setons 3v3 4v4 perspective where ACUs cover greater parts of the map and Turtling is made incredible easy, not only because of shields but also because of OC (killing any sub t4 land one shot does not increase the value of a land push).

The whole idea is to nerf OC so that it stays the same in early game, but gives you a draw back when you want its full potential. ACUs don't start with TMl or regen field from the start, you have to buy them and invest in them. The same should be implemented with the full OC to make OC more balanced and increase the value of T2 early t3 land pushes in a 3v3 4v4.
On a side note OC should do full damage to stationary shield to further decrease turtling in those games.

Holy shat are you implying that T2/T3 should be worth building? Blasphemy, stop changing my beloved simcity!

[TA4Life]

Pavese, you have completely ignored what was said in this discussion and keep on repeating the same nonsense.

1. There are multiple targets on the field you can attack with t2/t3 armies before you attack the ACU.

2. Nerfing the ACU makes it less likely that people will risk using it in battle, leading to more defensive strategies.

3. Making the ACU viable vs experimentals and t3 leads to some of the most intense moments during Supcom FA games. Making this viability dependent on an upgrade will reduce the number of these intense moments, instead a subset of these will turn into formalities where the acu will be simply killed. (notice haw this has already been reduced going from 3599 to FAF)

If you are a pusilanimous player who runs at the first sight of an experimental, I don't expect you to understand #3.

So far you and ZJ have been writing same old non sense over and over, stop wasting your time writing and our time reading.

Stop trying to kill a great game.

[Pavese]

1. There are multiple targets on the field you can attack with t2/t3 armies before you attack the ACU.

2. Nerfing the ACU makes it less likely that people will risk using it in battle, leading to more defensive strategies.

Stop trying to kill a great game.

In bigger team games the amount of targets are greatly reduced. OC may be considered balanced for 1v1, but it has destructive influence on the other matchups.

So they deviate into the tower fest and defensive strategies to t4. Why? Because the amount of investment you have to do to break a defensive strategy is not worth it when you could invest the same amount of mass in Eco .

Nerfing OC would allow midgame land tech to suddenly become more viable. Giving OC the shield buster ontop of that would allow for t2 land to dominate mapcontrol just like T1 does. But when t1 hits the t2 Pd phas the game becomes a stall until someone is dumb enough to get sniped or the first t4 walks around the map.

And i'm not making this stuff up. I play this style in my 4v4 apart from the whole t4 bit because that's kind of hard with UEF. T2 Land pushes are worthless, they don't work. If i conquer mex control and a forwarded position with offensive t1 i can bunker up and tech into t3 air. The T1 is easily recycled, out of position PDs as well. If any sort of push comes near my 2 t2 PD, 3 t1 pds and 1 t2 shield + my ACU bunker they get obliterated and i get free reclaims. I just have to scout once and maybe add 2 more PDs and still be totally save.



This is how you play currently and i would rather see that changed. Nerfing OC is one step, nerfing shields (be it through a general recharge nerf or a OC based shield buster). You totally seem to forget that OC is by far better in defensive situations then it is in offensive situations. It helps a lot when it comes to defensive play styles.


And i have no idea why you think an OC nerf would kill SupCom lol.

[TA4Life]

two points:

1. In a 4v4 unless an entire team executes an attack strategy, like all out land or combined, air and land, it is likely that the attack will fail, since any breakthroughs the attack may have can be cleaned up by allies who are not busy fighting.

2. you can't expect to go in with t2/t3 land against ACU+t2/t3 land and excepted to win. You ahve to bring your own acu to even this out. Under these conditions stationary shields and t2 point defenses are really the big defensive threat against the attack force. Blaming the oc here is not reasonable, and changing it won't change the "problem"

[Pavese]

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2. you can't expect to go in with t2/t3 land against ACU+t2/t3 land and excepted to win. You ahve to bring your own acu to even this out. Under these conditions stationary shields and t2 point defenses are really the big defensive threat against the attack force. Blaming the oc here is not reasonable, and changing it won't change the "problem"

Well, everyone probably has a different list of what "the problem" is. OC, untouchable t3 air, t4 build times and imba shields is mine and i will bring it up until somebody has the balls to fix this shit and bring the game to a next level of balance.

So what would you think of an OC shield buster?

[TA4Life]

I think OC should be powerful against shields, it would be nice if it knocked down a t2 stationary shield in one shot. t3 air is absolutely touchable, you can touch it with t2 flak in the case of gunships and with t3 sams in the case of bombers and asf. T2 flak with shields will also be effective afainst t3 that lingers above a base for too long.

I agree that overlapping shields can be a problem when taken to an extreme. Although they do make an aggressive acu more viable. I think shields are perfect when there are only a few of them, but when you get into the 20+range it becomes rediculous. Here a non-linear power cost with the amount of shields turned on would be the most logical thing to do, but i don't know if that is possible and of course would need a lot of testing and a lot of work to implement.

I think making experimentals more expensive is always a good idea, this allows for more fun with the more interesting t3/t2 units. Although I don't think just increasing the build time here would do much, since usually when people are squeezing out a t4 the mass in storage quickly becomes 0. Maybe something along the lines of what was done to t3 air in 3603 would be nice. Double all the power costs on T4 units.

[Scythe]

Double all the power costs on T4 units.

This would be really nice! Now, t3 stage is almost nonexistent bar the 1v1, as exps are SO much more effective.
Would love to see t3 stage back into team games.
Speaking land, of course.

[Kryo]

you cannot just increase the power cost of t4, as t4 is balanced in terms of dps/cost, health/cost. Its just not balanced in build time, although it got better with some of the latest changes. Didnt the latest balance patch reduce the build time of factory units? at least I felt so

[Zavior]

WHAT IS REALLY WRONG WITH THE OVERCHARGE AND THE VETERANCY SYSTEM:

Double the buildtimes of monkeylord, fatboy, ythotha and colossus. Make t3 land have some space to breathe! In the time it takes to build effective t3 land force, you could just build an expirimental and be done with it

[Fok]

Please... don't change OC requirements..... I fully agree with TA4LIFE !
The ACU is a key unit.. don't forget that. And OC is available to all ACUs ! why do you want to change that TA heritance ... ?
If there is something that must stay as it is, it is OC...